hello everyone welcome to another
episode of on the edge with Andrew gold
as many of you can see if you're
watching this version of it if you're
not you won't know anything I've got
Claire Headley back on the show from the
blown for good Channel I I think there's
a link below if there's not I'll
definitely make sure there is one after
and people will put them in the chat uh
so go and check out and subscribe to her
today is the day I think the mission
impossible comes out although I saw also
that it might be in a couple of days
it's different depending on where you
are there's going to be loads of furore
around Tom Cruise his that's his vehicle
there's a big Scientology background to
that as well that I'm going to be
discussing afterwards I think with Aaron
Smith Levin to do with the director
Christopher Macquarie and all of that
but Claire tell us a little bit about
Tom Cruise and Scientology I suppose for
those who've never didn't know maybe
they're just stumbling across this we
can go into a little bit of the the
stuff that a lot of the people already
know I I guess what what's Tom Cruise's
Scientology background
yes absolutely well Tom Cruise was
gotten into Scientology by Mimi Rogers
way back decades ago I'm not sure the
exact year but
um
and my husband Mark and I both knew and
worked with Tom Cruise when we were at
the headquarters of Scientology in
California
and in fact Mark was received
Scientology counseling from Tom Cruise
which he details in his book blown for
good behind the Iron Curtain of
Scientology
my role was more
um
I was involved in handlings of Tom
Cruise's staff when they were not
getting Tom active enough in Scientology
back in the 90s
um and overseeing his counseling and so
on and so forth Marty Rathbun for many
years was Tom Cruise's auditor it's
called in Scientology counselor
um
yeah so obviously we all know
um Tom Cruise is actively in Scientology
and uses his position and his
power over the public by popular opinion
to generate this false sense of security
in my mind that some people might be
lured into thinking well Scientology
couldn't be that bad Tom Cruise is doing
it and I say that because that's the
thought I had when I was a teenager wow
yeah that's fascinating and that's
something that I've always thought as
well and it's a difficult one because
again it almost seemed redundant to ask
you about Tom Cruise's role in
Scientology because so many people now
are regular viewers of yours regular
viewers of mine and this is just so
basic and obvious to them but then you
know when I talk to family members of
mine and friends and things and they'll
say oh it's the new Mission Impossible
film and I go well you know I'm not one
for boycotting and all that and if you
want to see it I think that's fine but I
don't feel comfortable seeing it because
I I think he's done some awful things
and then what would you then say so if
someone says well what's he really done
he hasn't done much I suppose what you
just said was that he his face is is
just enabling uh and sort of getting
people to join what sort of what what
else would you say let's say to my
family members who are saying I always
he's all right isn't he right so let's
get more specific then
um Tom Cruise had drifted away from
Scientology in the 90s these late 90s
while he was married to Nicole Kidman
and when he they divorced
um and Tom Cruise was then
lured back in by Marty Rathbun directly
in the early 2000s at that point Tom
Cruise and the leader of Scientology
David miscavige came out became absolute
best friends such to the fact that they
were speaking on the phone almost every
day which is what I was told by Shelly
miscavige and um David miscavige on many
instances told the management Executives
of Scientology the top people in
Scientology that he had told Tom Cruise
how bad they were how they were
non-performing and at one point David
miscavige even said Tom Cruise said that
he's going to come here and put your
Ethics in which in Scientology language
basically means he's going to beat you
to a pulp until you conform
hmm lovely and but did I mean did he
ever get violent I know Karen De La
carrier she told me that he did but then
Karen it's difficult to know sometimes
you know just the way she speaks oh yes
yes and I was like well is that
definitely what happened and she's like
oh he would punch punching people yeah
what's your experience of that so so so
I've never personally seen Tom Cruise
beat someone up when I was doing
handlings with his personal staff
however they recounted instances where
they had witnessed Tom Cruise through
one of his staff up against a
refrigerator and be verbally and
physically abusive so I did not see that
personally but I have no reason to
question the circumstances like it they
the staff members were stating this as
kind of a confession of you know this is
what we saw and we should have done
something about it so I have no reason
to question that they were being honest
wow
wow and that I mean that in itself is
just a fascinating Revelation that
there's so much more to get into of
course with nazanin boneyardi we'll get
into in his the search for a wife and
her cleaning things with a toothbrush
and all that stuff but just to hear
because now that's the second Source the
second time or third maybe that I've
heard that he was physically violent of
course the public sees this signature
signing or what do they call them an
autograph signing picture posing uh
lovely smiling guy but I guess the
closest we got to the real Tom was that
uh covet time when he was filming did
you see did you hear that there was a
recording leaked yes of him screaming at
everyone and he might have had a point
because obviously a lot of jobs were on
the line and he didn't want people
standing close together but I just think
a normal person who wasn't infected by a
cult would say it once maybe twice and
then that's it was he just went on and
on was that sort of Scientology like the
Rhythm was there something about it
there he just kept going and going at
these people oh come completely that is
absolutely in fact that is uh that whole
recording was extremely reminiscent of
how David miscavige talks to the
executives in Scientology and and the
way that I listened to that was not that
oh Tom Cruise is passionate about covid
and the jobs no this is how Tom Cruise
deals with situations in life
it wasn't it wasn't about
um anything other than himself
yeah yeah so it's scary really and we've
got they always talk about him as the
last true movie star I mean I I think
you could you could put Tom Hanks he's
still sort of I mean Clint Eastwood's
still going as well but they talk I
guess the sort of action running around
movie star Tom Cruise is the guy and
this is what he's really like so you did
you ever meet him I mean you were so
high up in Scientology it seems bizarre
to me if you didn't meet him or that
that could you just call him up
oh I wouldn't call him up but yes I did
meet him on several occasions and in
fact there's this um story I've told
before but it's um one of the uh one of
the times that Tom Cruise was at the
headquarters receiving canceling I was
tasked to be what's called his examiner
um which is after a counseling session
you have to go and check the person to
make sure that they have all the signs
that it was a good counseling session
and he flunked that exam as it were with
me
you flunked him yeah
how did he take that terribly
and in fact then um David miscavige told
him it was all a big mistake and then I
just I had made a mistake which I hadn't
um anyway it's neither here nor there
but
well it is here nor there because I'm
quite intrigued like did I mean firstly
did you feel pressured to pass him were
you thinking hang on this is that Tom
Cruise is almost a deity in in
Scientology was there pressure to pass
him well sure but also there was a huge
pressure not to pass him if he didn't
pass because there were video cameras
and so the the logistics of what I'm
talking about is you know obviously in a
counseling session in Scientology uh the
person is holding the cans and they're
connected up to the lie detector and
there's a the needle on the dial and all
that so I'm supposed to look at him his
face is he happy is he smiling write
down anything that he says and then look
at the needle and the needle is supposed
to have a manifestation called a
floating needle where it's moving moving
rhythmically back and forth across the
dial
the needle hit Tom Cruise's needle was
not doing that had I said it was and it
wasn't
I would have been sent to the
rehabilitation project Force oh my God
to be reprogrammed for committing a
terrible crime against Tom Cruise
because it's in Scientology it's a crime
to say a needle is floating when it
isn't so yes there was a the expectation
from Tom Cruise that I was going to tell
him his needle was floating but
conversely there was huge pressure on me
that if it wasn't I wasn't going to say
it was oh my God that's a horrible
Catch-22 that you you would put in that
I wouldn't know what to do you get in
trouble either way
when you're sitting there right and I
know a lot of whenever I say stuff like
this my commenters all start disagreeing
and I understand this but he is a
handsome man right and I know everyone
goes always an ugly okay but that's
because we don't like him because he's
dead of a cult and what you know but
even if he's not you know he's a
Hollywood star were you are you at all
sort of and at that point as well you're
not hating him right he's he's you
believed inside so he must have was this
very exciting well I mean sure he's like
one of the most powerful people in
Scientology he's David miscavige's best
friend you know whatever I was not
um there was no kind of enamor on my
part by any stretch of the imagination
it was you know he was not a member of
the sea organization he wasn't an actual
executive but pressure for sure
um he's a very powerful person probably
second or first most powerful person in
Scientology depending on your
perspective
I'm just so what do you say when he
walks in do you talk hello Mr Cruz were
you and were you I just would be so
nervous in that instance if I were you
yeah so so it's very um any
um steps in Scientology are incredibly
muzzled
um so there was no chit chat you know
just walk in sit down but um but there
were many instances where David
miscavige would take Tom Cruise around
the headquarters like touring showing
him the facilities and the staff were
all required to call him sir or Mr Cruz
yeah Mr Cruz okay how not that is that
relevant but how short is he
ah he's shorter than me
um I'm not sure and he's taller than
David miscavige okay what are you what's
your height five seven
okay gosh he really is sure I wonder if
there is a bit of the both of those
little again I don't want to offend
anyone who's short or whatever but just
obviously there's some sort of that
Napoleon complex although when you look
that up apparently Napoleon wasn't
actually short by the standards of the
day he's short by today's standards
where boys cruise and and a contemporary
short people is that was that the
closest you you got to him
uh yes and then and then I had
peripheral involvement for example I had
to select the person from religious
Technology Center where I worked who was
going to interrogate all of Tom Cruise's
staff
um to see if they were talking to the
media or leaking information all of this
kind of stuff I mean his his personal
staff were all scientologists probably
still are and were receiving regular
interrogations to see what they were up
to
oh man and that's where I've heard some
of the horror stories like you were just
saying before of course
um I've also heard that you know they
were made to do things like make a path
of flowers for him and Nicole to wake up
and walk down and it was the wrong
flower so they had to be up all night to
do it and then it's just you know to
what extent is Tom Cruise aware that
people are working like slaves Around
the Clock not sleeping and all these to
what extent is he aware of the abuses
that go on within Scientology do you
think well as I mentioned I know that
David miscavige told Tom Cruise he was
abusing staff so I have no reason to
believe he doesn't know and there are
many instances
um where actually members of the sea
organization were providing free labor
to Tom Cruise like there were was
extensive Renovations done at his hangar
the sound system put in at his house I
mean
um John brussow I think back in 2010
when he left had extensive photos of all
the free labor that was provided to Tom
Cruise courtesy of the sea organization
whose members are paid 46 dollars a week
so you just have to go any person in
their right mind would would be aware of
work being done for them and that
they're not paying for it right
yeah how does he square that if he's a
True Believer let's suggest let's let's
say he's not a psychopath and he's just
a True Believer how is he squaring that
with himself right great question I have
no idea I don't think he is
yeah oh I'm sorry yeah no I was I'm just
saying you you can't uh the the logic
process does not allow that to happen so
you know either he thinks he's God in
Scientology or and therefore he deserves
it or he just doesn't think about it but
you know when but if he knows Tom Cruise
knows that members of the sea
organization have signed a billion year
contract and their entire purpose is to
quote clear the planet unquote so if
those same members of the sea
organization are at his facilities 24 7
doing renovations for him how how does
one reconcile that
I love that yeah I love the idea because
I I can sort of get how he can be a True
Believer because even a lot of the
viewers now are True Believers and have
been true believes in certain religions
and things that's why they follow this
channel is why they follow your channel
and you were as well and it can happen
to all sorts of people so I do get it
and and I can even see how you might
Square it yourself like okay well David
miscarriage walks around punching people
well I understand that because he has to
keep disciplined we're clearing the
planet but I don't know how we can you
know but they have to install my sound
system at my house and come and deal
with it that he's got enough money that
it doesn't why doesn't he just get he
can pay anyone to come and do it why
should it be Scientology taken away as
you say from there one mission statement
to go and make his sound system what's
going on yeah exactly I know there's no
there's no answer to that and and you
know and again Tom Cruise in in the face
of Scientology also became famous for
the video uh you know famously him in
the black turtleneck that was made for
him when he was given the IRS IRS IAS
medal of you know Freedom medal of valor
um the biggest one that had ever been
given
um that video is a study in Insanity
let's just let's just call this fate is
fade yeah it absolutely is and I think
you were saying to me as well that he is
I mean he was at um operating thetan
seven at least a couple of decades ago
so we're gonna presume he's at at eight
now which is the highest isn't it yes
that is the highest
and he's so he's very heavily involved
up at the top and and you also told me
last time that medal of valor I think
you told me this was specifically made
just for him so he's like this is what I
mean when I say he's basically deity
status there isn't he right exactly I
mean deity given factor in Scientology
doesn't believe in God per se but yes
the equivalent of that for sure and yeah
and that's why I say
Tom Cruise is either the first most
powerful person in Scientology or the
second just depends on your perspective
in terms of money provided to them he's
definitely number one
yeah I think are we talking Millions
oh yeah absolutely probably billions by
now
and that then raises all sorts of
interesting questions and I'm going to
talk more of Aaron about that later but
obviously the the strange thing that
Aaron and I uncovered was was a while
ago was that uh Christopher Macquarie
who's his his long-term writing partner
appears to be registered as living in
Tom Cruise's daughter's flat in a
Scientology uh building in Clearwater
and no one quite knows why but over the
years they've taken away there used to
be a whole list of producers working on
Mission Impossible that you can find on
Wikipedia and over the years that's gone
down every year and now it's just Tom
Cruise and Christopher Macquarie just
and the budget has gone up like tenfold
and it's just like where's the money
going who's in you're leaving these two
basically scientologists unless you know
I have to say alleged Scientology of
Crystal Macquarie I don't know if maybe
he's not and there's some explanation I
don't know about that would be curious
Clearwater Florida is a very small town
yeah I don't know what unless it's
something to do with voting or I mean
it's something that's not on the up and
up isn't it I mean whether he lives
there if he doesn't live there why is
his name registered to vote in that
house yeah in the in in now my 48 ex
years of experience dealing with
Scientology there's no such thing as
coincidences when it comes to
Scientology that's that's the bottom
line but I mean even in 2004 David
miscavige announced to all the
Scientology Executives that Tom Cruise
had reconfigured his compensation
package so that he would get a large uh
he would just get a percentage on the
back end rather than being paid for his
role as an actor and David miscavige in
his own word said Tom Cruise is putting
that to scientology's war chest quote
unquote
um so I have no reason to doubt that Tom
Cruise has been funding Scientology
almost exclusively at least since that
time
percentage-wise
this is why it's so weird this is what
people are not getting they I think a
lot of people think it's just like oh
he's one of the famous people there like
John Travolta and the late uh Lisa me
Presley and uh Kirsty alley uh you know
just another face whatever he's like
propping the whole thing up if Tom
Cruise wasn't there in your mind is
Scientology still would it still be
there right now
um
if Tom Cruise left Scientology yes
Scientology would still be there
um I mean they've amassed billions of
dollars so how much would how much are
they going to spend to protect those
billions of dollars but the fact of the
matter is is that they are
um dwindling their membership is
dwindling people are becoming more and
more aware of the abuses this
organization perpetrates so public
awareness has increased dramatically
over the last two decades and yet
um you know so yes Tom Cruise is
propping it up for sure no doubt about
it yeah and yet he remains and you'd
think he would have the most access to
the most information can you ever see a
time where he leaves
I'm not sure I mean he has everything to
gain if he were to leave
um the problem is that it becomes
increasingly difficult for someone
especially someone who has personal
knowledge of abuses there's a cognitive
dissonance that sets in and you have to
be a strong person but he has a a
relationship with his daughter to gain
for example
um
you know so Never Say Never
that's right do we know that he doesn't
see Surrey Cruz
I don't know that for a fact I've seen
that reported I certainly haven't seen
any pictures of him with her in what
like
15 years maybe well let's see she's Suri
is 17. she was born two months after our
oldest son so she's 17.
that's ridiculous that she's 17 just
thinking about how time goes man it's
very scary so scary but it's probably
gone very quickly with Tom crew because
he hasn't even seen her in that time
from I've seen that report as well
they've just not seen each other we
don't know for sure that that's the case
but I I imagine he has a bit of a
smoother relationship with for example
his daughter Bella who is a
Scientologist and lives in Scientology
or at least was living in Scientology
headquarters in London or something like
that I think do you know much about that
yeah I don't but I I know
um like during the 2004 period I was
talking about where Tom Cruise was
getting handlings at the headquarters in
Scientology
um Bella was pretty young then and was
already getting counseling at Celebrity
Center
from actually uh Jessica fischbeck at
the time
Jessica feschbach who then was married
to Tommy Davis blah blah blah anyway
and Jessica yeah oh sorry yeah no I was
just going to say yeah as far as I know
yes he is somebody that he needs to
come to the table and speak his truth
but I doubt that's ever going to happen
because I believe him to be a coward
yeah well he was a I mean I I never
forgot that guy just from watching the
um I slipped my mind I've interviewed it
sweet John Sweeney the journalist
watching that documentary if anyone's
not seen that just that clip that went
viral just showed how Scientology can
get into your head because I've
investigated all sorts of you know
strange culty people I've gone and met
them and investigated and stayed with
them for you know for a while and
they've upset me and they've got in my
head and they've done whatever but never
anywhere near to that extent because you
know you're a journalist you're like
well I'm the journalist and it's
actually good if they're being crazy
because it makes the documentary better
so usually you're thinking that so that
was to see John Sweeney lose his rag in
such a manner and he was screaming you
were not there at the beginning and it
was it was Tommy Davis more than anyone
just I'll never forget just nudging and
nudging and nudging him like a lap dog
or something just just crazy see I mean
John Sweeney is also an alcoholic and I
think they probably sort of they knew
that obviously about him and really
really pushed his buttons didn't they
yeah but but Tommy Davis absolutely
leveraged coercive mental manipulation
to try and break John Sweeney
systematically he did that that was 100
the end result he was going for no doubt
about it and let's not forget too Tommy
Davis is probably one of the people
single-handedly responsible for a mass
Exodus of scientologists when he went on
national television and announced to the
whole world quote there is no such thing
as disconnection unquote well every
single Scientologist knows that is a
bald-faced lie and that that resulted in
many people leaving Scientology
wow because they realized it was all
nonsense then and what he got did he get
in trouble I might think it was a Mike
rinder's book he got in a bit of trouble
for that Tommy Davis yeah he did he
escaped to Las Vegas I think I can't
remember the details but yep he was um
he was a piece of work
yeah it seems so do you think there was
that Louis Theroux documentary a few
years later and uh for those who don't
know he's a British journalist I'm a
huge fan of his but he couldn't get near
Scientology they wouldn't let him there
do you think they just sort of whereas
they saw there was a weakness in John
Sweeney they knew with maybe they knew
of Louis that we're not going to be able
to break him in the same way or is it
about maybe it's they changed their
policy as the years went by
my answer to that is none of those
um anyone who was in Scientology Who had
who had the capacity to speak to the
media in such a way that Scientology
would accept has escaped so they have
nobody left which is interesting when
you factor in that they're a billion
dollar cult and yet they have no one
doing their public relations it's it's
wow
it's just that's just stopped then has
it so that's why because unfortunately I
mean his work's amazing Louis through
but that documentary in my opinion just
well it didn't quite live up to my
expectations and the other one had come
out the same year going clear which
which wasn't so much a presenter-led you
know with the journalist on screen which
was you know they're both good
documentaries but yeah he just didn't
get that access to they had to do there
to do Recreations and actors and stuff
like that to make it work yeah and that
was a shame so you think that was down
to just they just don't have someone
want to talk to him no they don't and
even even in the example of Tommy Davis
Tommy Davis's presentation of
Scientology to Media backfired on them
so many times so many times and and
other other people that they've
presented over the years I mean even the
interview Ted Koppel did with David
miscavige is a complete disaster for
Scientology so yeah they don't have
anybody that they can wheel out I mean
Monique Yingling I think is the last
person that has been publicly spoken
about scientology and the irony there is
she's not even a Scientologist
it's a shame in a sense because I would
have liked that documentary to have more
access and also like I've got a a
meeting with BBC producers this week and
they want me to bring a story I don't
know what about yet and I thought I
wonder if there's anything in
Scientology but there's not really much
I can go in and do is there
I'm not sure I mean there there's
endless things about scientology to talk
about
India to get hold of them oh yeah no no
no no definitely not no there's nobody
Corrine Powell is a name that people
have heard because she signs letters but
those letters are generally dictated by
David miscavige and Curran Powell will
never appear in front of a camera
yeah I mean I'd love for them to bring
somebody out you know go right ahead
let's see who you got
great imagine that like me and you could
go would just go storming in there we'll
make a great TV show where we go and
chat to David miscavige and and Tom
Cruise so Tom Cruise right going back to
that time you were with him it was this
sort of auditingy thing we're here to
pass a thing uh what did you get from
his personality in that time how long
were you in a room with him oh not not
more than a few minutes
um but I knew that he's a very
I think he's
ethical uh um narcissist probably you
know I haven't spent any great length of
time with him but just from the
interactions with his personal staff and
having them recount stories of him being
verbally and physically abusive you know
you just go well that's not a nice
person
yeah yeah it seems to be the case and
obviously your husband Mark I mean he's
told me the story before but again
there'll be people who aren't here uh so
he was doing which way round was it was
Tom giving the sessions to Mark yes so
Tom Cruise was delivering Scientology
counseling to Mark Mark so Mark was the
person on the receiving end holding the
the cans on the on the lie detector and
Tom Cruise was asking different
questions and so on and so forth doing
his Tom Cruise was actually doing his
training at the time to become a
Scientology auditor Scientology
counselor and
um so Mark was his you know test
subject
how long did he have to do that for
um I think a few weeks at least probably
maybe even a couple of months it's you
know there's
for that section of training those four
different levels and I think Tom Cruise
um did each four of those uh like
there's a whole series of
um steps to be taken on a person for
example so yeah
it's crazy at that point again I just
are you and Mark I mean if you're
together at that point are you is he
coming back and gossiping with you about
it the excitement of like oh it's Tom
Cruise or something that was before I
even arrived at this at the headquarters
yeah so he wasn't gossiping about it but
he never I don't think he even ever told
me until after we left that Tom Cruise
had audited him him if I remember
correctly it's definitely the uh the
communication in Scientology about what
you're doing like there's many things
Mark and I have talked about since
leaving and he's like what I'm like yes
yeah you do we just never talked and
part of that was because we were on
completely different schedules but a
huge part of that too was honestly the
culture and Scientology makes it such
that the less you speak the better
because if you say something even to
your spouse that is considered negative
or should be reported upon like the
snitch culture in Scientology is like
none other on on this planet
that is scary isn't it it's really scary
but this is I remember Mark told me
because I thought I thought he'd be
excited as well and not just because
it's Tom Cruise the movie star because
I'm not even that excited I don't really
like his films I liked the the lawyer
one with a Few Good Men with Jack
Nicholson but I didn't like his
character in it I very rarely have
enjoyed any of you know people talk
about that Magnolia film where he
basically played himself because he was
just a cult leader in in that film but
again I don't think I enjoyed that I
don't think I found that an enjoyable
film or any of his films so I'm not from
that perspective I suppose it's not that
exciting but just because he's he's as
high up if you're a True Believer he's
as high up as it as it can get I suppose
I'd find that exciting but Mark said he
fell asleep while being audited by Tom
Cruise yeah
Tom Cruise's presence that's from lack
of sleep in general when you're a member
of the sea organization like you sit
still chances are you're gonna fall
asleep yeah he said Tom Cruise wasn't
happy about it though yeah of course he
wasn't so
it means he wasn't doing a good job and
or anyway yeah there's a lot of reasons
for that but yeah you know it's funny
you mentioned Magnolia I'll be honest
that was that came out during my media
blackout years we didn't have open
access to watch TV or go to the movies
or anything so I've never seen that
movie I'll have to check it out
oh yeah you've got to give that a go
that way it's quite even when when it
came out it's quite an art House movie
uh I think it was Paul Thomas Anderson
who then did the master which is funny
because it's obviously very critical of
Scientology so I don't think he got his
old mate Tom Cruise to sign off on that
one no [ __ ] Phoenix obviously did it
in Phillips email Hoffman but uh
Magnolia is is a film I guess a
difficult film is like completely
Bonkers and weird and and again not
exactly an enjoyable romp but it's uh
it's something and yeah I think I think
you and Mark might like just watching
the Tom Cruise scenes because yeah he is
like and it may be an exaggerated
version of himself he's like a big like
Guru in it and he says very weird
strange things yeah he probably had no
problem assuming that role being best
friends with David miscavige you know
he's seen it up close and personal
yeah I'm not sure he even knew they were
filming him he was just going about his
day for that Tom Cruise just acting how
he acts and they had a camera on I don't
no no he probably was acting in it I
don't know but so so is there a
possibility that you know Tom is just a
lunatic and because I'm thinking back to
let you know now we're getting to like
you know you talked about 2004 2005 is
jumping on Oprah's couch and he looks
like a lunatic is he maybe a lunatic
yeah I mean judge someone by their
actions right
he supports an abusive cult gives them
billions of dollars and uh yeah
yeah so I think kind of kind of sums it
up
um maybe maybe you could take us through
that because that's the next very
strange Tom Cruise chapter in in
Scientology was when they went about
finding a girlfriend and again a lot of
people know this story some people like
to hear it again I think and some won't
know this so take us through that sure
so
um in late 2004 well so backing up
obviously Tom was married to Mimi Rogers
who was a Scientologist
then Whirlwind divorce Whirlwind
relationship with Nicole Kidman who then
was in Scientology gotten into
Scientology
um then Nicole Kidman left Scientology
and thereafter there was
um a few different
partners that Tom Cruise had Penelope
Cruz for example Penelope Cruz they
tried to get into Scientology but
um to my understanding she practiced
Buddhism and even though Scientology
will state oh we accept people of all
religions
um you know that's just to lure people
in the door and not give them the
impression they'll have to denounce
their beliefs which would be a much
fairer statement because you cannot have
other beliefs or practices in
Scientology in fact it's considered a
crime to do so so you know there again
you have the conflict that comes up many
times
because there's that interview isn't
there I think it was the one with Peter
Overton the Australian journalist when
Tom's going you can be a Christian and a
Scientologist you can be Jewish and
scientologists and it's just absolutely
not true is it yeah completely
bald-faced lies again and he knows that
Tom Cruise knows that I mean the reason
his relationship failed with Penelope a
huge element of that anyway was that she
wouldn't denounce Buddhism
so you know again that's a great example
of him stating something he absolutely
knows to be completely false
um but yeah so so there had been
um you know some relationship challenges
primarily driven because of Scientology
and because Tom Cruise was a
Scientologist and a very uh fanatical
one at that
um and so in mid to late 2004
Shelly miscavige told me personally that
she was now having to do a special
project to find a partner for Tom Cruise
and in the conversation that we had
about this she said that David miscavige
was talking to Tom Cruise every day and
having to
work him through these relationship
issues and this was and this was an
important project because it was going
to get Tom back on his focus of
spreading Scientology to the Millions on
on planet Earth
um and so the project involved Greg
wilher at the time who was you know
another one of David miscavige's top
lieutenants as it were I had to arrange
to get all these fancy suits for Greg so
he could fly to New York and to Los
Angeles and so on and so forth where
they then were doing auditions for a
movie
um but the actual truth is they were
trying to find a partner for Tom Cruise
who would be become a
as fanatical of a Scientologist as Tom
Cruise's
when did you find out that's what that's
what it really was well I mean I found
out when Shelley told me that that's
what they were doing
um I just didn't know that they were uh
recording all these Mark saw the
videotapes and he was telling me about
all these audition tapes and I was like
yeah that's not an audition they're
trying to find a wife for Tom Cruise and
you know it was like you compare notes
and you go like what so is this just
like loads of tapes of women just
because I believe they were asked about
really private you know sexual things
I didn't see the tapes myself Mark did
but I absolutely knew because Shelley
miscavige told me that they were doing
this project and like I said I my my
role was somewhat peripheral in terms of
the logistics of it
um but I absolutely knew that that's
what they were doing
um and of course then in January 2005
when I escaped this project was still
ongoing and eventually resulted in the
marriage of Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes
and there was an intermediate step which
landed at the feet of an actress called
nazanin boneyardi so tell us a bit about
about that because again I I had never
heard of and I don't mean that as a
slight on her there's plenty of very uh
established and Brilliant actors and
actresses that I've not heard of who
don't want the Limelight or anything
like that but who was she
nazanine is um someone that to my not I
mean I know I know her I wasn't there
during these events so I'm going to be
paraphrasing my memory of it but
um she was a Scientologist from a very
young age if not born into Scientology
she has since left Scientology and she's
an incredible person beautiful talented
actress her activism work is incredible
um but either way during so during this
time she was essentially selected to be
one of these trial run partners for Tom
Cruise as it were she was forced to
split up with her boyfriend at the time
is my understanding and then she was
sent to join Tom Cruise and and I
believe Telluride she was having some
issues
um and some physical problems and she
was then this was into the the course of
the relationship ship and she was then
sent away in disgrace made to go through
some pretty
severe handlings at the hands of
Scientology for
not performing as Tom Cruise wanted
he apparently she said very well done to
him after he won the medal of valor and
that's not supposed to be said to your
superiors is it
I don't know I don't I don't know why
that would be a bad thing to say
oh I suppose
scientologists say yeah I don't know
I've never heard of that being a
negative thing it was probably if
anything the fact she had the audacity
to address him
while she's his girlfriend they were
like from what I've understood they sort
of fell in love with one another for the
first month or so a bit of a whirlwind
romance and then she said very well done
I mean if you take the very out well
done is a phrase even outside of
Scientology I say Well done to people
but it can often have sarcastic
connotations and you know but the irony
is that it actually in Scientology
this is going to get deep in the weeds
real quick so I'll try and keep it super
simple we can handle some of it okay
when you're an auditor a counselor in
Scientology every single
um so every single auditing session you
deliver so let's say I'm the auditor I'm
gonna give you an auditing session I'm
going to write down notes of everything
you say everything that I say what your
reaction is what the lie detector is
doing blah blah blah that's that's the
worksheets of an auditing session so
that then gets turned in afterwards to
the case supervisor the case supervisor
is going to grade give me a grade of
that session the best grade I could get
is very well done so it's not a negative
thing in Scientology
maybe she said it like while like
smashing a plate she was like very well
done with an eyebrow raised and like a
stupid award that they made up for you
of course you won that award because
they made it for you well done maybe
maybe she blinked as she was saying it
which was considered bad communication
for a Scientologist to Blink
well that gets on that gets us onto the
second purported reason that Tom Cruise
I mean I was going to say they broke up
but they didn't break up from my
understanding it's Tom Cruise just left
and then other people had other
scientologists had to explain to her
that they were no longer an item which
is a horrible thing to do to somebody
completely speaks to that whole
disconnection thing really doesn't it
suddenly you fall in love with someone
for a month it's a whirlwind romance
with not just the most famous one of the
most famous actors on the planet but the
most famous person in your religion or
your sect or your cult or whatever it is
and suddenly he's gone no explanation
never get to see him again and
apparently this was to do with
um not understanding David miscavige is
David miscavige's speech very well right
yeah and what does that say by the way
of the the communication skills of a
Scientologist that Tom Cruise would not
even just have a face-to-face
conversation about his with his partner
I mean come on now not and again not to
State the obvious obviously I'm no
longer a Scientologist but you know they
allege and claim to have the key to
magical communication and effective
communication and
um you know anyway
is a as a prime example as is Suri Cruz
another example as to you know Tom
Cruise's very poor communication
um abilities right and that's why it was
such a problem that she couldn't nazanin
couldn't understand David miscavige as
Tom Cruise's best friend and the leader
of Scientology at that time because it's
suggesting the very leader of this cult
is actually poor at communication
because she can't understand him I mean
he you know he had a he obviously has an
accent she I think she was British
wasn't nothing she is British so I think
I think she's Iranian but she grew up in
England so
um yeah but yeah so she has a British
accent yes for sure
um and yeah and David miscavige uh
speaks very
Fast Very emphatically and his writer
Dan Sherman who's since passed away used
incredibly flowery language you know not
to
um anyway we always don't know I hate
that we are on the Watershed blah blah
blah you know
I hate that that's true and that I mean
that is obviously he he must have
miscarriage you know picked up a lot
from other Cults and things as Elvin
Hubbard did and you pick up this sort of
neuro-linguistic programming but I you
know you don't trust people who use
flowery language I you know say things
as they are economy of language that's
how I feel so yeah that should be good
good communication ageless words yes
exactly yeah that so that's that's
effective and and just the ability to
have some hard conversation sometimes
you know come on now like the the people
that take to the internet as the
Warriors I'm like hey you know if you
have a problem with someone look them in
the eye and tell them that's the fair
and honest thing to do they don't have
to agree with you but at least do the
the
decent honest thing
yeah I think so well you know I I like
you I I get I imagine I get a lot of
angry people but there are far more nice
people as well so we we should just
remember those people I think absolutely
and then so nazanim was then made to so
this wasn't a direct order as far as
enough and Tom Cruise but she was then
made to scrub the bathroom with a
toothbrush right yes and that that that
is something I've heard David miscavige
order personally many times so I
wouldn't though I wasn't there and can't
say that I heard David miscavige order
that wouldn't surprise me one bit based
on my experiences
partly I think because she sort of uh
confided in a friend about what had
happened I think and then yeah and then
I think there were other punishments
like having to run around and do some
sort of humiliating exercises and things
right yeah probably
um another punishment David miscavige
was famous for was making people run
endless laps around buildings or a pole
in one case
um
all hours of the day and night to as a
as a way to atone for your sins so to
speak
oh man it's absolutely Bonkers should we
go to some questions are you okay to
answer some questions sure absolutely
let's see what we've got people put in
some questions if you want I I'm not
going to get to that many of them
unfortunately but if you put question
and capital letters or something I'll
see them easier you can but do a super
chat though those go straight to the
straight to this thing but like lovely
April in Amsterdam thank you so much for
your generosity and April says hi from
Holland lovely Holland the only thing I
watch more than SP TV that's suppressive
person TV which you guys are all part of
and people should all check out is The
Simpsons sad to learn Nancy Cartwright
is in Church of Scientology do you know
her reaction to the Church of
Scientology episode I didn't even know
there was a Simpsons one me neither no
have you seen it love Mark's South Park
story
yeah I have not seen the Simpson episode
I'll have to check that out I'm sure
Nancy just opted to block it out similar
to what Isaac Hayes did with the
Scientology episode before he passed may
he rest in peace
um but but I remember when the South
Park episode came out it was kind of
funny
um it came out and obviously I and to be
honest I was afraid to watch it when it
came out Mark watched it and I was like
oh I was still very fresh out and
recovering but
it wasn't until six months later that it
became this big stink from Scientology
about the South Park episode so there
were all these jokes at the time like oh
oops offices special Affairs got really
behind on keeping up with the media like
why is this what everyone was like so
confused why is this becoming a problem
six months after the fact
that's funny they were behind and then
they got really into it weren't they
they were going through Trey and mats
the writers of South Park there uh cars
and their their bins they're litter
whatever all that stuff to try and sort
of spook them out and freak them out
yeah oh man that whole Affair was crazy
I had a great chat with Mark
um about that that maybe I'll put at the
end of this as well people can go check
out Margie M thank you for this
fascinating episode thank you says
Margie M thank you very much it's very
nice you just say and very generous
Barbara Mangano thank you as well for
your generosity and says I see you guys
more than my husband uh it was quite
nice isn't it
can't argue with that right I will I'm
just going to scroll for a little bit
um Sean W do you think Scientology will
be irradiated or like I guess eradicated
eradicate of course yes in the next 10
years
we'll see we'll see we you know I'll
just say that when Mark and I first
escaped Scientology they were
um way more powerful in that nobody had
the courage to speak out they were
famous for their intimidation and
harassment tactics and while they do
still do that the you know it's strength
in numbers and every single voice counts
every single story has an impact and
um and the the media are less and less
afraid to even mention the word
Scientology so I think public awareness
has
has had tremendous impact in relation to
um knowledge of Scientology and their
status in today's world
hmm uh Margie M asks why doesn't Nicole
Kidman get to see her children we
mentioned Bella of course who's still in
Scientology did the church force them to
divorce it was a double question there
yes so
um yes Scientology was absolutely
involved in the divorce and managing all
those Logistics Marty Rathbun who at the
time was David miscavige's Deputy was
handling that personally it was mainly
orchestrated by Scientology because
Nicole had drifted away from Scientology
to my knowledge and did not want
anything further to do with Scientology
and so Scientology viewed that by
eliminating Nicole from Tom's life they
could get him back in which is exactly
what happened so there you go on that
um Nicole Nicole's children were then
specifically and systematically isolated
from her because she was considered to
be a suppressor person they the children
were already in Scientology at that
point so yes Scientology destroyed
Nicole's relationship with her children
hmm that's absolutely crazy uh one I've
just I've just spotted is Trish it's not
a question as such but if Tom saw David
miscavige beating someone I imagine it's
sort of a dot dot dot I mean I think
from what you've said here just sort of
stand there wouldn't he right yeah I I
think so I I think he would be
supportive of David miscavige and
consider that David miscavige had the
right to do that and was doing the right
thing to put Ethics in is the terms used
in Scientology I mean there are
thousands of Hubbard policies where you
it says you should give someone a black
eye you know take them in a dark alley
uh I mean on and on there's
um there's direct and specific policy
from Hubbard that authorizes taking
drastic and physically abusive measures
to get somebody to conform and that is
what they do and David miscavige's
continuing that Legacy
JM asks is Claire worried about Indie
scientologists still auditing
specifically children this refers to I
mean what's something I didn't realize
about but it but it happens in all
religions and Cults and things is that
you can leave the actual structure of
Scientology and still be a practicing
Scientologist which which I suppose is a
lot of the uh auditing and and the
beliefs and things like that and there
were I think there was a bit of a furore
recently and I don't think my mind
saying it was around Karen De La carrier
who I've interviewed on on here and the
suggestion that she was still doing
these things afterwards what you don't
have to I mean if you want to you can
you don't have to reference her in
particular but what what's your thought
on that
yeah so I know that there are people
involved in independent Scientology I
never have been I never will be
um P I think people take different paths
in getting out of a
High control group
um personally I'm not a fan of that I
will always stand by that I think it
should be illegal to involve children
and Cults and that would include
Scientology and independent Scientology
I don't think any child should be
exposed to that period end of story
that's that's my answer to that question
and as a mom of three Over My Dead Body
would my children ever be involved in
any kind of
you know
uh trial you know oh let's do this let's
do this I've told my children when
they're adults I want them to make their
own decisions about what they will
believe and that will always be my
position
Pat Shaw asks why does Nicole Kidman not
speak out against Church of Scientology
yep I think only Nicole Kidman can
answer that
it's got to be an NDA doesn't it some
sort of contract make her life yeah her
life easier as well I'm sure I'm sure
it's something like that you know and of
course
laughs
who knows I mean with her children maybe
she has hope someday she'll reconnect
and if she were to speak out that would
drive a further Rift I mean it gets
really complicated Scientology
systematically leverages and controls
their members like when I left you know
I lost my mom my siblings my aunts my
uncles you know not all I'm I was able
to reunite with many who were never in
Scientology which has been wonderful but
when you're when you consider that your
decisions on whether to remain in said
cult or exit has huge ramifications it's
not an easy decision under any
circumstances
no absolutely not she won't want to make
it more difficult and and just get you
know fair games and all these things uh
Fat Cats Heaven thank you for the Super
Chat says uh many CMOS RTC you'll have
to tell us what that means are underage
has David miscavage a lead of
Scientology ever hit a minor
so cmlrtc is really just referring to
top Executives within Scientology
without getting complicated but yes
there were many minors in those
organizations and yes I have seen David
miscavige be physically abusive to a
minor
I'm not surprised at all to be honest
um everyone do make sure do stick around
but make sure maybe in a separate tab to
go to blown for good where you just get
everything from Claire and Mark Hedley
and they speak to many other
scientologists as well you get the
inside scoop all the time there's a
thing below so click on that click the
like button and stick around because in
a few minutes I've got Aaron Smith Levin
popping on this channel so it should be
up and around here this