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n
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today in Christianity we are battling a
lot of voices out there and one of those
is that the Book of Revelation was not
written in 95 ad but rather in 65 ad and
someone's going to ask well why should
it matter listen it does matter it
matters because it changes the outcome
of the Book of Revelation
completely was the Book of Revelation
complete at the destruction of the
temple in 70 AD does it matter between
65 ad and 95 ad it matters so much that
it actually could jeopardize your
understanding of the word of God to the
point of even being able to interpret
the word of God for your own life it
could even come down to the point of
Salvation why because do you believe in
what God's word says literally a lot of
people want to spiritualize the Bible
that's a dangerous thing to do the Bible
says clearly what it means and God meant
what he said and so with what you're
about to hear it is so vitally important
that you stay tuned and and tune in with
all of your attention to this profound
argument of these days that the Bible is
as it presents itself or is it what some
want it to
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say
okay first of all it's great having both
of you guys here because uh you guys
come from your very very specific
expertise in certain areas and so what I
want to talk about is certainly uh prism
but Dr Paul also this thing about um
Christian Palestinian ISM and um a lot
of people may not be familiar with the
term but they have certainly heard about
Palestinian ISM the pl of the
Palestinians and uh all that so what do
we start with that let's look at at at
what you've experienced you've written
on this and God is Raising you up to be
a voice to address this Christian
Palestinian ISM what is it well I'll
take you to Bethlehem March 2012 and a
conference that was headlined the Christ
at the checkpoint conference it was
organized by Bethlehem Bible College
which is the only professing Evangel
angical Bible College in the Palestinian
so-called Palestinian territories and
Bethlehem Bible College brought together
Evangelical pastors teachers theologians
from around the world to talk about the
whole Israel Palestinian issue so you
had on the platform men like Tony
campolo um you had uh John orberg I know
who are very well known here in the
States you had Pastor Joel Hunter pastor
of a mega church in Florida who's one of
Barack Obama's spiritual advisers you
had sbok David Kim who's the chairman of
the world Evangelical Alliance you had
uh humanitarian Christian organizations
like World Vision represented there plus
a plethora of so-called Palestinian
theologians and what they were saying is
is what we've been hearing for 2,000
years we've been talking about
replacement Theology and other programs
that God has uh rejected Israel because
Israel rejected the Messiah and replaced
Israel with the church now that is
replacement theology but what these guys
and I'll I'll throw in a few other the
names Gary Burge professor of New
Testament uh weaton College Illinois
Steven caer very well well-known
Evangelical Anglican Vier in in the UK
what these guys are saying is we don't
believe that God has replaced Israel
with the church that the church is the
Fulfillment of Israel that Jesus is
Israel and I heard Steven caer in
Bethlehem say when Jesus was hanging on
the cross Jesus was Israel so they're
redefining terms they're trying to throw
off this label of replacement Theology
and and and what I heard in Bethlehem
was this look we love the Jews this is
what all the evangelicals were saying we
love the Jewish people but but we don't
love Israel we don't recognize that 1948
was a miracle it was God's bringing
together of the nation again in the land
it was a political accident and a
catastrophe but the name Israel appears
over what a couple thousand times in the
Bible absolutely how can you say that
you're you're you love God and you don't
love the things that God loves God says
loves Israel absolutely I've loved you
with an everlasting love that's right
you know Jeremiah 31:3 Hosea 11 how can
I give you up oh Israel well Romans look
at Romans 10 9 and 10 yeah has God
forsaken his people by no means it's not
possible because God would be denying
himself faithful Covenant keeping God
would would you call it heresy it's
absolute heresy but I would go as far as
to say it's Blasphemous because you're
you're misrepresenting the very Heart Of
God basically saying God has rejected a
people that he chose the scripture says
God's married to Israel God the father
is married to Israel this is an affront
against his wife according to God's
absolutely and we read in the prophetic
scriptures how God despite Israel's
rebellion and the rejection of the
Messiah God will woo her back through
the Wilderness and that will ultimately
be through the Wilderness of the
tribulation period so the uh Bethlehem
conference what uh what did you see in
that well we the the whole conference
began with an address by the Palestinian
uh prime minister uh who said welcome to
Palestine you have the opportunity to
see what it was like to live under
occupation now these guys that are at
the conference on the in their books on
their websites their blogs they accuse
Israel of genocide of ethnically
cleansing the Palestinian people of
being an aparte State I mean they they
they even go so far as to say Jesus was
a Palestinian refugee who lived under
occupation yeah Jesus was a Palestinian
right I'm sorry but the scriptures say
Jesus was a Jew born a Jew died a Jew
rose from the dead as a Jew ascended to
the father's side as a Jew and he's
coming back King of the Jews King of the
Jews absolutely Mark well one of the
things I think is interesting most a lot
of these people uh who believe and
replace we still can call it replacement
theology they will say even men like
John Piper will say and they're they're
very reformed a lot of them very
reformed very calvinistic believe in the
sovereignty of God they'll say well
Israel has no right to be in the land
today well my question to them would be
well if they have no right to be there
why are they there that's right did they
get there by good luck or is it just
chance the fact if God's Sovereign and
they're there then what are they do they
must be God's will that they be there I
love it so if they're there and it's not
God's will for them to be there then
God's not sovereign so the fact that
they're there means God wants them to be
there and Israel is going to be
regathered to the land the Bible because
they they'll say well Israel they they
don't believe in the Lord you know they
have no right to be there because
they're in unbelief well the Bible tells
tells us that they're going to come to
belief in the land so if they come to
belief in the land they have to be there
to begin with in unbelief even pre even
predating that Ezekiel says that he's
going to draw them back into their own
land in unbelief and then the scales
will fall for Rise so they have they're
going to be regathered first of all
physically to the land and then
ultimately they're going to be restored
spiritually to the Lord let me be uh
devil's advocate here but you guys are
believing the Bible literally you guys
are taking it face value for what it
says all these things you know we've got
uh really to do justice we have to
spiritualize these things you know you
mentioned what John Piper said I saw
that published just recently about they
have no right to the land well now
you're tampering with with
spiritualizing the word of God and and
you go off the rails at that point
nothing is certain nothing is sure at
that what's the abrahamic Covenant God
promised Abraham and his descendants
says Abraham look up your eyes look as
far as you can to the east to the West
look every direction and in Genesis 13
different from Genesis 12 when he just
makes the promise he says I will give
this land to you and your descendants
forever yep and he goes on and gives the
borders of the land which they have
never possessed not yet in Genesis 15 he
gives the borders of the land they've
never possessed that land and so if they
don't ever possess that land then what
God Said is not true well exactly right
Solomon if I remember right Solomon came
the closest but even still uh we know
because we you we guys we come together
uh from a premillennial view of the word
of God we know that ultimately all of
those things will be fulfilled in the
physical coming of Jesus Christ to the
throne of David which will be in
Jerusalem which will be the Jerusalem of
Israel in the last days so Mark not too
long ago you were involved in what is I
think now called the great debate it
took place at Dallas I saw this it was
amazing um Hank hgraph was there
representing the prist view and prism is
encroaching upon so many in the world
today I'm gonna want you to speak to
that but you were debating Hank hgraph
and I felt terrible for Hank I mean it
was just a tough time you did an amazing
job you you came at it not only from the
from the pastor's perspective a little
bit but you came from the researchers
side your attorney the mark Hitchcock
the attorney kicked in and uh we all
watched how Hank actually just folded he
had nowhere to go and I think that's kid
I'm not I'm not picking on Hank but Hank
became fully aware of the fact that he
was standing in in jello and um so I
just want to ask you what's the big deal
why is uh the dating of the Book of
Revelation so important what's that all
about why does it matter well because
preder is the word preder prisms from
the Latin word preder which means past
and so they believe that most or all of
the prophecies in the New Testament have
already happened and so they believe the
Book of Revelation is a prophecy so if
it's prophesying the events of 70 AD the
destruction of Jerusalem through the
Romans they actually believe that was
the coming of Christ Christ came through
the Romans to destroy Jerusalem does
that place us then in the Millennium
sure yeah that's right we would be in
the Millennium yet now according to
their Paul because we're in it that's
right well they would say that the Book
of Revelation if it's a prophecy about
events in 70 AD had to be written in 65
ad sure because obviously it can't be
written after that so if Revelation is
written after 70 AD at any point it
can't be a prophecy of events in 70 AD
but the traditional view that's been
held through church history the dominant
view is revelation was written in 95 ad
near the end of the reign of the Roman
Emperor Dom missan and so that's what I
wrote my my PhD dissertation at Dallas
Seminary on that in fact if people want
to read my dissertation or see the
debate they can go to
predb.pw then prism can't be true that's
right and you know the old idea is that
any theological uh point is only as
strong as its weakest link yeah and the
weakest link for prism is the dating in
the Book of Revelation it's the Achilles
heel of that view yeah everybody has to
watch that debate I was there in 20 uh
2007 or 2008 2007 December yeah and and
it was just a privilege to see the Lord
use a man like Mark with a a a gracious
heart just to present the truth and
that's what he did when you present the
truth of scripture and the truth of
History error falls down every time and
I felt very sorry for Han hogra it was
embarrassing the way he crumbled in that
debate well and I got to tell you and
this is almost terrible to admit but
when I saw his wheels come off his
Chariot I was I wanted to jump into the
you know in there to to give him a
Band-Aid or something though I totally
completely disagree with what he
believes but you stayed at it I mean it
was amazing I love what you just said
said Paul because you you stayed on the
kill so to speak and and the poor man
just came apart but he was
representing uh such a a terrible false
doctrine that un undermines uh
ultimately for me the Blessed hope yeah
I mean it is really serious and yet
churches are teaching this stuff and the
pastors are not walking up to the pulp
and saying hey everybody we're going to
pollute you this morning with the prist
view they sew it like tears in the field
it's being planted and people it's there
a lot yeah the problem with that is too
when you develop it when you don't con
when you don't interpret the Bible with
a consistent literal hermeneutic or
consistent literal method of
interpretation and one of the keys there
is consistent because they do it a bit
and then when it doesn't fit they lapse
back into an allegorical of
spiritualizing when you do that the
problem is that bleeds over then
potentially to other areas sure of our
interpretation it's really it it can be
very it's very dangerous it's almost uh
as the the dam is opening up it's open
you're not going to be shutting it it's
it's opening up and and so you're right
it it translates itself into other areas
and then you start going to skew because
Hank and those that are holding to the
prist view they they're a skew in other
areas and um yeah I mean I I I listened
to Hank um interview in Gary Burge and
they they really wanted to promote this
new DVD documentary called with God on
our side that was produced by Porter
Speakman junor an Evangelical Christian
uh that was shown in in Bethlehem at the
conference it's toward the states it's
toward the United Kingdom and and it's
basically slamming Christians that take
a literal hermeneutic that just believe
what God has said concerning his
purposes and concerning the events re
relating to the the second coming of the
Lord Jesus Christ Our Lord has a throne
that's his right and he's coming to
claim that Throne he's coming to you
know receive the the glory of the
Nations and and and what Satan is doing
through preterism through all these
strands of erant theology replacement
theology fulfillment theology Liberation
theology he is getting the church
completely distracted from what we're
called to do which is to look and wait
and expect and and recognize the signs
of our Lord's coming you know I I I came
to know the Lord
simply um there was no external
weirdness I and I guess what I'm saying
by that is I had no church upbringing
that was a skew or stranger word I had
no church upbringing if you sit down and
just begin reading the Bible without any
external input the holy spirit will
teach you from the of God and if you
read the Bible from Genesis to
Revelation it's very clear to the reader
that Jesus is King he's coming back and
he's going to return to a country called
Israel that has a capital called
Jerusalem and we're not drumming this up
right now well you guys are just a bunch
of pro zionists what does that have to
do with anything I guess if we are pro
zionists it's because the Bible is pro
Zion that's right and you know we're not
we're not bringing in some sort of a
bent twist or or political agenda it's
what the Bible says if you take it liter
Lally yeah and so and what these guys
will do is say you know we are
relegating the church we are putting
Israel in such a place that the church
is secondary the church is just a
parenthesis in God's plan but no what
we're saying is God has not finished
with Israel he's got a great plan he's
going to be glorified as he says to
Israel through Ezekiel in the end
chapters 36 37 38 39 he will be
glorified in the sight of the Nations
but we as Christians we're saying no
Jesus is coming we're going to be caught
up we're going to be taken out of here
to the father's house tribulation is
coming God's wroth is coming and the
epicenter of that tribulation period is
Jerusalem it is Israel it's the Temple
Mount so we're putting the church first
trying to get the church to be ready as
the bride for the bridegroom and then
give this message to Israel and the
world Jesus is coming back to his own
people to his own nation and they will
be restored two things why would why
would someone Embrace prism and then
what's the fruit of it what ultimately
is the what's the hope of it all well
prism I you know it's been gaining a lot
of popularity you get on the internet
and you put in prism or predus there are
thousands upon thousands of websites I
get emails all the time literally I get
them weekly from predus sending them to
me and you know challenging me on this
or that there there it's it's very
popular out there today and I've asked
myself that question what's why is it
popular I think several reasons I've
come to one is there are a lot of people
who claim to be futurists you know to
take these prophecies futuris
who didn't really understand the
futurist view yeah and so they hear some
of this and it's easy then for them to
to come into that I'm not sure a lot of
the people they say well I used to
believe this way I'm not sure how well
they understood it another reason I
think that that people go this direction
some people just kind of have a natural
vent of whatever is popular like you
know left behind is out there and they
kind of get the idea that you know
whatever's popular like that I don't
really want to be a part of that they're
kind of drawn to other things and I'm
not saying everyone's that way but I
think can be that psychological element
another thing is you know there are some
well-known people who are espousing this
view RC Sproul is a partial prist I he
still believes in a future Second Coming
resurrection and a judgment anyway yeah
that's right but but uh you know when
men like that take a view like that it
it influences people so those are some
of the reasons why I see you know people
kind of being drawn to this view um but
you know as far as the dangers to it go
one of the things is is it does it
totally blunts the the the hope of of
the Lord's return at any moment right
exactly they don't they don't talk about
prophecy really they don't talk about
the Lord's coming they they talk about
all these things in the past tense and
we are to live looking according to the
scriptures I mean and you know you you
live for what you look for in life you
know when you're getting ready to get
your driver's license or you're getting
ready to get married or you're going to
have a grandchild right or you're
looking to retirement or whatever it is
you live for what you look for and
they're not looking for the Blessed hope
and the coming of Christ and and to me
it changes the way I live to get up in
the morning and say perhaps today could
be the day that Jesus comes it affects
how we live you know I love that John in
first John John says that um it does not
yet appear what we will be like but we
know this that when we see him we will
be like him and all those who have this
hope purify themselves even as Christ is
pure it affects how you live I love how
you put that yeah yeah that that is the
whole purpose of of of the scriptures
it's not just to inform us it's not just
to to fill our minds with a doctrinal
system it's to touch our hearts it's to
tenderize our hearts towards the Lord
and and to be you know having our hearts
filled with the things that are in his
heart and that's what we're talking
about the things that are dear to the
Lord uh he is impressing upon us and you
know when we're talking about prism
we're talking about Christian
Palestinian ISM replacement theology
we're not we're not condemning these
these guys you know many of them are
brothers in Christ we we're saying this
is dangerous this is this is an end
times agenda that Satan is is playing
out in the church and we are trying to
appeal to our Brothers and Sisters in
Christ to say get out of there get out
of there and get back into the
scriptures and let the Lord by his
Spirit show you I love what you just
said Paul this is a big deal Mark Pastor
in a church this is a big deal because
do we really believe we're living in the
last days and you will say oh yes we do
okay part of the last days or our great
danger of the last days is deception and
but we don't want to you know we don't
want to talk about deception you know
it's kind of like what if we have to
point fingers so we shy away from it
we're almost we teach it but we avoid
the pastorial mandate to uh to protect
the flock and so in I think in the name
of Tolerance in the Name of Love uh
pastors are allowing this kind of junk
to creep in and it all starts with I
mean we've seen this we've had to defend
our churches against this where it
starts with maybe a men's group somebody
somebody shares in the men's group or
maybe in the women's ministry someone
shares in this devotion it just Wiggles
its way in in the slightest area and
begins to become some sort of a of a
word among the church and this is what
we've experienced is eventually the
pastor's got to step in if he's a real
Shepherd he's got to step in and and
address it that causes division the
church will split and the the church
that's being led by the word will
continue and then that group goes off
and what do we see happening within a
year or less they drw up and fade away
and Satan rejoices he's got a victory
he'll take some if he can't take all
Absolut the problem one of the key
problems with prism I see as well is
again a lot of people start out as being
what's called a partial preterist they
still believe in a l literal Second
Coming a literal Resurrection literal
judgment but the problem is they're
inconsistent because those partial
predus they catch it from the full
predus and from our side as well they're
kind of they're inconsistent and what I
see happen many people start out as
partial PR and they start to inch more
to full and the problem with full prism
is they don't believe in a literal
Second Coming they think it's already
happen they don't believe in a future
Resurrection they think when you die and
go to heaven that's the resurrection
there's no final judgment and that's
that's heretical you're heretical view
that's where it can go absolutely it's
like having a little rattlesnake in your
house yes okay it's a rattlesnake it's
going to grow it's going to grow it's
going to affect the way that you it's
leav isn't it you don't get that leav
out when it's there and when it appears
and you recognize it then it's going to
spread it's going to spread and then the
more it spreads the more difficult it is
to get it out and that's the problem
when people get sucked into this they
really get rooted into it it's very hard
there's a blindness a spiritual
blindness that only the Lord can remove
and that and that's what we pray for we
pray in our church I'm sure you do I
know you do in your churches I'm the
only non- Pastor around this table but
my pastor a true Shepherd has has stood
and he said no we will not allow leaven
we will not allow this eror cuz he loves
the Sheep the beautiful thing about your
pastor and what we're doing too is when
you release that information to the body
we will not allow this you know what's
great it empowers The Godly Believers in
the church to Al also be Watchmen
they're caring they're helping you tend
the flock and that's that's a glorious
thing um guys it's great uh Dr Paul Dr
Mark having you guys I'm the only non-
doctor here so I'm your patient I take
it but it's it's just great God is using
you guys mightily I mean I think I
travel a lot and it's nothing compared
to what God is using you guys to just
reach the world and Mark your books God
has just taken your books and making
them super sellers it's amazing a great
and uh you're you're the young guy
you're the baby at this table and God is
just raising you up and doing great
things and we're just trying to serve
the Lord as part of his body and um yeah
it's a privilege isn't it to belong to
Jesus and and just represent him
wherever he would take us and you're
doing a great job I love the way the
Lord's providentially brings people's
lives together I met you at the pre-trip
few people our lives us and enage us
it's wonderful I meet so many men like
that over over time and our hearts are
knit together and it's a wonderful thing
and you are a blessing to us you're an
encouragement to us Pastor Jack you know
we praying for you and you just keep
standing that's awesome we'll do this
together yeah go God bless you guys very
much it's
[Music]
great
so it does matter what you believe and
it matters how you believe and what you
do with what you believe Jesus said that
we need to be careful not only what we
believe but how we believe what we hear
and how we hear and so maybe now's the
time when you see how such detailed
information the Bible gives us how
critical salvation is now if you don't
know God personally through Jesus Christ
maybe you're very religious you need to
stop and and kind of think for a moment
God is specific he he wants to know you
personally and I want to ask you you ask
yourself do you know God intimately and
personally you can know him right now by
simply asking the Lord Jesus Christ who
the Bible says not only came into this
world based upon the prophetic word of
God the Prophecies of the Bible on the
dates that God had prescribed in the
very town in the very manger that God
had pre-ordained by the ancient Hebrew
prophets but that he would be the one
who would die on the cross for your sins
he said that if you called out to him
you would experience salvation pray this
prayer with me and mean it dear Lord
Jesus Come into my life I believe you
died on the cross and rose again from
the grave I'm receiving you now I
confess my
sins thank you for Dying For Me Jesus
live your life through me now in your
name I I pray amen listen this is a
vital forever life-changing commitment
that you just made we'd love to hear
from you and remember this it's our hope
that through Jesus Christ you will know
real
[Music]
life in the Bible God is clear he says
to Abraham the father of the Jewish
people I will bless those who bless you
and I will curse him who curses you and
in you all the families of the Earth
shall be blessed the United States a
nation who has historically been a
supporter of Israel is perhaps the
greatest example of God blessing a
nation however as of late do you feel
that the tide is changing will our
political leaders continue to support
Israel what about our churches we hear
some pretty influential voices stating
that God is finished with Israel will
there be consequences in this timely
relevant message Jack Hibbs opens the
scriptures to reveal God's heart toward
his chosen people and the land of Israel
order the DVD now stand with Israel by
visiting real lifewith jackhibbs.org
or call
8777 77
2346 that's 877
72346 or write to real life with Jack
hibs PO Box 1273 Chino Hills California
91709
Jack Hibbs truly believes we are living
in some of the most exciting days in
history which brings some great
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