I'm not demanding I'm asking
nicely as a kind civilian that also
knows how to manipulate cops this is
22-year-old Russell Jones just hours
prior to the filming of this
interrogation footage he was arrested
for helping a 15-year-old girl execute
the brutal murder of her father Let's uh
set our clock shall we in approximately
3 seconds you will witness an extreme
shift in his demeanor
that you're listening in on my
conversations aren't
you so we can do this the nice way or we
can do it the hard way and I can release
my
bipolar Let's Make a
Deal One one thanks for the food two I
see Ellie and Davin because they are
both under my protection three before
you release Ellie to her parents
or parent do a background check as well
as a DNA test as well as well not DNA a
uh drug test and if you find out that
her parent her mom is in fact doing
drugs you are to release her to me tell
him to release
Gavin and
Ellie thank you and I know I'm being
recorded you you can keep that on there
unless you're a nice cop then I take it
back but if you're one of those two
timing donut eating piece of crap that
don't like rules a high scho bully with
a
badge I'm sorry buddy but I eat High
School bullies for
breakfast so you want the whole story
make a deal or I let out my bipolar a
your
choice the following footage contains
neverbe seen personal accounts of the
suspects involved in this crime through
in-depth interviews we've obtained rare
insight into the minds of three
criminals who display behavior that is
among the most disturbing we have seen
yet I can still twist your little mind
Aaron Friar's murder was reportedly one
of the most gruesome homicides Medford
Police had seen the investigative team
assigned to the case knew there was
significant cause for concern just from
viewing the crime scene alone Aaron's
two youngest daughters Sierra and Olivia
walked out of their bedroom the morning
of October 2nd 2017 to find the
horrifying evidence of the crime but
their father was nowhere to be found the
two who were not yet in high school
called their father's girlfriend friend
for help and it was not long before the
police were involved only a few hours
later investigators picked up and
detained three young individuals walking
roadside a short distance from Aaron's
abandoned Silver Mercury Marquee his
eldest daughter 15-year-old Ellen Rose
fryer was part of the trio her
19-year-old boyfriend Gavin Curtis
McFarlan and his longtime friend
22-year-old Russell Pierce Jones
accompanied her what what's your first
name Mike okay Mike what Smith Mike
Smith okay yeah it kind of sounds like
one of those weird Mike Smith does sound
like a very common sure not Russell well
that is one of the names I haven't
patted him down or anything go ahead I
don't really have any weapons or
anything okay that makes me feel a whole
lot easier all right yeah just go ahead
and stand here spread your feet real
quick I probably would be really stupid
saying this uhhuh but did you happen to
notice my wrist at all your wrists what
about them the thing is that I can
dislocate my wrist okay don't do that
though please okay you seem like a nice
one toate I won't make it hard on you
all right I only make it hard on the bad
ones I actually started my own
protection business did you yeah what
kind of protection I know it's kind of
risky but I work with people and legally
considered okay so you're going to
protect like runaways they have to
runway for some reason yeah so you
provide protection for runaways and get
them like place to live yeah okay a lot
of places Ellen was a sophomore student
at South Medford High School Medford
Oregon and Gavin was a previous student
who had dropped out a quarter before his
graduation Ellen would tell police that
she met Gavin walking through South's
hallways according to Ellen she reached
out via Facebook messenger and started a
conversation that would evolve into a
forbidden romance she only 15 was
underage and Gavin 19 was her lover
friends and family were appalled but no
one as much as Ellen's father Aaron in
addition to Ellen's mother Maggie
immediately set clear boundaries she was
no longer allowed to see Gavin
characteristic to many teenagers who do
not get their way Ellen rebelled she
snuck out and lied to see him secretly
maintaining their bond it was not long
before Ellen's lies caught up to her and
Aaron discovered that instead of staying
the night at a friends as she'd been
claiming she was sleeping over at
Gavin's Aaron Furious stormed over to
Gavin's house founded on his door and
threatened him warning him not to come
near his daughter again or else it was
following this incident that the couple
in addition to Russell who claimed to
own a protection business developed an
Insidious plan that reached far beyond
sneaking out or running away as is
typical of many teenagers they began to
conspire to murder Ellen's father who
Ellen alleged had abused her although
they initially intended to execute their
plan after the new year when Ellen would
turn 16 Ellen began to claim the abuse
was growing worse and I was not happy
with the text and that's the one that
talked about the abuse yeah okay and
further that she was pregnant with
Gavin's child this spurred a sense of
urgency that drove them to act sooner
rather than later on the Saturday
preceding the crime when Ellen was
absent attending a high school band
event Gavin and Russell attempted to
break into her house through her bedroom
window with murder in mind messaging
Ellen all the while they quickly found
that eron girlfriend was asleep in the
room and ran off although the attempt
Drew attention and concern the police
were not involved at that point Aaron
would pick his daughter up from the band
event take her and her siblings
Halloween shopping and treat them to
Burger King the next day and return to
their home to watch a Sunday night movie
the events that followed the next
morning were a tragic contrast to this
seemingly wholesome day of family events
Gavin and Russell again arrived outside
of Ellen's bedroom window in the early
hours of that Monday morning Ellen
prompted Gavin to enter and he obliged
while Russell remained outside in her
yard over a period of an hour or so
Gavin and Ellen whimsically discussed
their future full of marriage and
Lifelong Love but this was only to pass
time they were waiting for Aaron who
rested on the living room couch to fall
asleep eventually they heard snoring and
Gavin began to make his way to the
living room his first attempt failed
when he accidentally kicked a trash can
it was still dark Aaron woke up Gavin
retreated to the bedroom and Ellen
pretended that she had to use the
restroom oblivious to his impending fate
Aaron purportedly said to Ellen Stop
scaring me with all these people
breaking in lately when the two heard
his snoring once more Ellen handed Gavin
an aluminum baseball bat something Aaron
had kept close by for protection and
told Gavin take him out after Gavin was
finished he sent Ellen a message
informing her that it was done Russell
who had stood outside with a machete for
backup entered the home at that point to
assist with transporting Aaron's body
Russell reported that he was shocked and
that he immediately retreated to the
bathroom sickened by the scene of the
crime Aaron's face as shared by Russell
was scary due to the nature of Aaron's
fatal injuries Gavin wrapped a towel
around Aaron's head and a blanket around
his body Russell holding the blanket at
Aaron's feet and Gavin holding it at his
head carried his body out to Aaron's own
car and hoisted him into its trunk Ellen
was the last to re to her home she stole
money out of her recently murdered
father's wallet said goodbye to her
sisters who later told police they heard
their father say a bad word when they
were just waking up for school and
retrieved her dog before leaving the
trio proceeded to drive to Walmart while
aon's body remained in the trunk Ellen
used the money she had stolen to buy
junk food and hair dye before leaving
they walked into an SSI building so that
Russell who was on disability for
reasons we'll learn later could retrieve
money with Gavin serving as his rep P
the following Eerie footage captures
these
[Music]
moments they dumped Aaron's body off an
embankment along the side of a road also
off the embankment alongside the road
they threw various incriminating pieces
of trash and clothing articles they
ditched Aaron's car and walked away with
plans of hiding low in an abandoned
house and eventually retreating to
California he dropped his body off on
the side of like a pretty well-known
Road man like some lady was like walking
her dog and then found his body we
interviewed dozens of friends and family
who knew these suspects and we found
that almost all of them shared the same
sentiment I spent like the whole year
with her and Dan doing competitions and
whatever so pulled me aside was like did
you hear what happened with Ellie frier
and I was like no I haven't heard
anything and literally a week or two
previously I had spoken to her and been
around her it shocked me it was a shock
it was a little bit shattering it was a
you know a murder and a really kind of
mysterious and gruesome one and I don't
think anybody was expecting that all
signs aside no one expected that this
would happen think about this your
daughters 15 16 and she's with a grown
ass man doing drugs I would tell him
never talk to my daughter again and it's
like some Romeo and Juliet type you know
I mean they're not supposed to be
together but they want to be together
Romeo and Juliet laws could be applied
there because it's a three-year age
difference what is the Romeo and Juliet
law so they do something drastic you
know and unfortunately it was taking
Aaron's life in such a messed up way
they found like actual evidence of them
planning to kill both Ellie father and
the other guy whose name I can't
remember his dad as well who's your
father uh Russell Jones sen oh what's so
bad about him um his past as well as my
past growing up with him over 22 years I
know at the very least Gavin and Ellie
were present when uh wner both of them
beat um Ellie's father to death with a
baseball bat they you know then took his
car with his body dumped him not even
that far away I don't think in a ditch
we're caught like not that long after in
the car I think which is crazy Metford
police at least say it's one of the
Glorious scenes they've ever seen all
factors involving these specific three
individuals culminated with a deadly
storm that ultimately led to Aaron's
traumatic
murder this is the beginning of an end
for Ellen frier she sits stiffly in an
uncushioned chair the walls are bare and
narrowly enclosing experts designed this
room to SP feelings of discomfort
isolation and unfamiliarity the
interrogation has already begun
throughout the following interrogations
we will analyze all forms of
communication forensic Linguistics and
the complex relationship between
suspects criminal behavior and unique
underlying psychology only hours
previously Ellen stood outside her home
while Gavin murdered her father after
she Rings her hands and cracks her
fingers one by one she stares stoically
at the camera
her behavior is markedly inconsistent
with the nature of her recent
experiences an important aspect of
reading body language is observing
individuals Baseline non-verbal cues
followed by clusters of non-verbal cues
which can occur consecutively or
simultaneously comparing these in the
framework of individual circumstances
including environment is an additional
critical consideration upon
contemplating Ellen's non-verbal
language also note her paral language or
or the language that she conveys through
vocal tone pitch procity volume Etc they
may assist law enforcement in building
criminal profiles determining suspects
motivations or even detecting deception
Ellen shows little to know arousal
physiologically behaviorally or
emotionally mark this as our first
significant behavioral observation yeah
so that's the interesting thing is that
if you met Ellie she doesn't seem like
the type of person that would hurt
somebody she really was a sweet and soft
individual I think that's what was so
shaking about it was that it doesn't it
didn't really make sense to me that
someone like Ellie would do that didn't
seem in her character at all she was
really sweet she like was a really great
person so I was like okay I can be
friends with this person she just seemed
like a normal 15-year-old girl many
classmates new Ellen is the girl who
always raised her hand in class she was
accounted as intelligent polite and kind
but something that few could later
explain lied dormant in Ellen hiding
amidst High School band trips homecoming
dances and AP classes here that's
something sits patiently and composed
waiting for an investigator in an empty
interrogation room the following
interrogations have been analyzed by a
qualified team including two licensed
attorneys one being a former criminal
prosecutor and a psychologist
trainee hi hello are you Ellie
no what's your name I have the right to
name silent okay you do have the right
to name silent the investigative team on
this case may have selected this
specific investigator detective
Stephanie Smith to conduct Ellen's
interrogation for tactical reasons
police psychology experts outlin that
investigators with traits similar to
suspects are more likely to succeed in
building Rapport and facilitating open
honest communication this concept
applies to the broader field of
psychology as well it may be used as a
vehicle of manipulation to appear more
likable otherwise termed the liking
similarity effect Ellen is more likely
to respond positively to a female who
speaks softly than a male who speaks
gruffly Ellen immediately displays a
high level of resistance as the
interrogation unfolds detective Smith
will navigate each obstacle to open
communication that Ellen throws her
way is that what you're choosing to do
yes okay uh I at least to know your name
though do you you don't want to tell me
your name rain rain Mark lying as our
second notable Behavior observation in
display of resistance Ellen's first word
is a lie and she lies about her name
lying is a common exploitive tool
compulsive lying or pathological lying
is characterized by lying about subject
surrounding identity as a means of
control okay rain well if you choose
that you want to talk I'm around okay I
would like to know why I'm in handcuffed
and why I am detained I have the right
to know okay Ellen is angry this
reflects in her expression which is a
significant contrast between her flat
disposition minutes previously her
eyebrows are raised unusually high and
she holds them there as she asks the
investigator with a childlike voice in
an indignant defiant tone why she is
being detained why am I being detained
her eye contact is unfaltering Advanced
situational awareness training would
identify this behavioral cluster as
indicating a need for
dominance so we got a call of concern at
your house today well first I'm going to
tell you all your rights my house I'm
going to tell you all your rights okay
and then I'm going to explain to you
what's going on and if you choose to
talk after that that's completely up to
you this is a lesser known Rapport
building tactic that functions by
reminding suspects they have some level
of autonomy Ellen appears to grow more
receptive okay okay
you have the right to remain silent so
you said you want to remain silent then
I would like to know why I'm detained
okay so we got a call of concern at your
house today and your little sisters are
pretty scared about what happened there
and so what we're doing is trying to
figure out what happened and the police
went to your house and we're also a
little bit worried about what's going on
over there detective Smith is vague that
law enforcement is worried about what is
going on over there Ellen's house
at this point she's trying to build
rapport this is a soft and indirect
approach detective Smith wants Ellen to
fill in the gaps I haven't been there
all
night well there are things that would
indicate otherwise I gave you guys what
you wanted normally it would take about
24 hours to get missing person's report
if there wasn't evidence of blood then
then if the person's missing for a total
of 48 Hours hence 48 hour mystery
dumbass then you do your little search
pos by then Gavin me and her would be in
California and I'd like to talk to you
about that but with your wishing to
remain silent it's really difficult to
kind of get to the bottom of all of that
then let's talk okay so what I want to
do is make sure you understand what I
told you about what your rights are
because that's super important okay so
can we go through those one more time
yes okay so you have the right to remain
silent what does that mean to you
detective Smith reiterates the Miranda
Rights and asks Ellen to explain what
each right means to make sure there is
understanding states often require this
if suspects are 15 years of age or
younger
so this morning your little sisters ran
over to your mom's house and and told
your mom about something that worried
them that they saw in in your house okay
and what that was was a large amount of
blood and they described a few things
that you had been doing at the house
kind of the way you said goodbye and
that it worried them because they
weren't sure if they were going to see
you again and they love you and that
really worried them a
lot about where you were going and why
you were leaving so
quick because they care about you and
they love you she frames the story from
Ellen's sister's perspective describing
how scared they were to appeal to
Ellen's Humanity but Ellen seems
relatively
unaffected you know do you love your
sisters yes and you care about kind of
how they feel about you mhm yeah anybody
would you know that yeah yeah
so kind of that's what we need to hash
out you know what did your sister see
why are they worried yeah what did they
see
that's what I'm going to ask you to be
honest I don't have a clue mhm Ellen
becomes abruptly Animated she raises her
eyebrow sharply and they linger there
something about the expression seems off
it doesn't reach the rest of her face
indicating chirality or match her verbal
expression this abnormal behavior
further supports that Ellen struggles
with issues of affect or apathy Ellen's
expression whatever it is does not
appear normal Ellen's ex-best friend
Jillian mcfeeders commented on Ellen's
mental health to investigators stating
that Ellen had displayed signs of
bipolar disorder switch would go off
sometimes and I mean it was not very
long it was just kind of a woo and then
it was gone but this is a critical piece
of information confirmed by someone who
knew Ellen best Ellen's mood
fluctuations indicate that she suffers
from heightened emotional reactivity and
sensitivity in response to triggering
stimuli this contrasts with mood swings
typical of bipolar disorder which are
not as transient you said that there was
a large amount of blood is everybody
okay that's what we're trying to figure
out yeah do you go to school no no
what's the last grade you completed 12th
you completed 12th grade detective Smith
begins to ask background questions to
establish Ellen's behavioral baseline or
the behavior she normally displays when
answering fact-based questions later in
the interrogation when she poses
question questions relevant to the crime
she will look for behaviors that diverge
from Ellen's behavioral Baseline when
Ellen responds we will expand on the
formal technique of this concept later
in the
interrogations how old are you 18 okay
all right where did you go to school
South midford High School when did you
graduate CL last year class of 27 this
year sorry class of
2017 I graduated with an honors diploma
that's
exciting as we know Ellen is lying when
she answers most of these questions
because we know she's lying we can see
the way Ellen expresses herself
non-verbally when she lies based on
facts one Ellen's tone drops and
flattens a notable deviation in her
Peril language do you go to school no no
what's the last grade you completed 12
two her eyebrows raise three this is a
cluster of non-verbal indicators Ellen
looks up and to the right she smiles
laughs as she answers and then moves her
hands apart when did you
graduate last year four we can see
another cluster when she corrects her
lie with another lie this time we can
tell she's more flustered she scrunches
her face to the point that she closes
her eyes she false starts we see her
eyebrows drop dramatically she rapidly
shakes her head back and forth and
finally she aggressively flicks her hair
out of her face and tots her head back
five last we see another eyebrow raise
what kind of classes did you take AP AP
what AP American studies AP Human
Geography AP Psychology AP
biology goodness pretty much everything
I could take
yeah and I know you live with your
sisters cuz I know somebody else has
talked with them today I didn't talk to
them um and who else do you live with
just
them Ellen responds just them and she
sounds more emotionally expressive she
may have a soft spot for her sisters the
investigators seems to think so as she
often includes them in her
questioning and my
mother okay where do you live in the
area I don't know the exact address so
you live with your sisters and your
mom and you graduated last year okay and
you were walking down the street it
sounds like today mhm who were you with
I was with my friends okay and I wasn't
there so I really don't know yeah who
were who who are your friends the two
males that have also been detained okay
um who are they to you they're friends
okay what are their
names I'm not going to give their names
unless I'm there she only trusts me as
her da
okay so what have you been up to today I
haven't been home and now I'm really
concerned about what's been going on M
Ellen puts up her defenses and a setting
outside of an interrogation
defensiveness naturally elicits a
negative response from The Listener
detective Smith is trained to employ the
resistance countering technique
reframing in this instance she utilizes
reframing to refocus Ellen's attention
on something more positive holding
positivity assists with resetting the
flow of conversation prevents
defensiveness from building and
increases efficient information
gathering this tactic draws from the
field of positive psychology which arose
from the idea that reorienting focus and
reframing perspectives away from
negativity results in Greater Life
equilibrium where were
you
out like out where just out and about
couldn't
sleep when Ellen lied about graduating
from South Medford High School I
graduated with an honors diploma she
stated that that she had graduated with
an honors diploma an identity lie this
is unnecessary detail in contrast her
responses here are short and vague like
out where just out and about she's
unable to provide any detail an
investigative team will analyze am
mounts of detail and specificity in the
context of what suspects say they might
note that Ellen was overly specific when
she provided detail when detective Smith
didn't prompt her to honors diploma they
might also note that Ellen was overly
vague when the investigator prompted her
to be specific her actions both warrant
attention in an interrogative
environment where's the last place you
slept at the house at your mom's house
mhm okay well we've talked to your mom
you know that she's super worried about
you she's so worried about you detective
Smith shares that she knows Ellen is
lying but follows with an empathy
statement there is no perceptible
response from Ellen but it's clear
detective Smith is still trying to earn
Ellen's trust and break the ice this is
an attempt to make an emotional
connection but Ellen holds steadfast
maintaining her resistance I would
actually like to speak truth
today
okay I think that your mom is I it's
been a long time since I've seen a
parent like your mom was
today she was on her knees on the ground
sobbing because that's how worri she is
about you so I do know that that's not
where you spent last night so where'd
you spend last night I didn't sleep last
night so where's the last place you
slept my mother and my father's house M
well I've talked to your mom and so I
know that you hadn't been staying
there right it's my father's weekend I
go back and forth though because my
father is a little bit abusive
okay Ellen mentioned her father's
abusive Behavior relatively out of
context her parents shared joint custody
which explains why she went back and
forth between their houses further her
response Beed no relevance to the
question consider that Ellen conspired
to kill her father and very recently
encouraged and stood by as her boyfriend
murdered him lifted his body into the
trunk of her father's car and threw it
over an embankment her statement
regarding her father's abusive Behavior
extends Beyond a lack of remorse
resembling something more like Revenge
when investigators spoke to Ellen's old
friends they shared that she had been
consistently confiding in them about the
abuse I know that he was kind of rough
on her and she said that he would like
emotionally abusive and physically
abusive but I'm not sure how true that
is what she would bring up is things
weren't H like they were not good at her
household she felt her dad wanted to
kill her he started getting abusive he
started mistreating her sisters and her
when the Medford PD posted d details
surrounding the crime and Suspects on
their Facebook timeline there was an
outpouring of mourning and kind words
for Aaron many comments portrayed Aaron
as the opposite of abusive stating Aaron
cared more about his girls than anything
members of the frier family and the
Medford Community were
shocked so what's the last house you
left from my father's house okay and
when when did you leave there about noon
okay and then where'd you go
just wherever I felt like going I just
went for a walk and I didn't stop
walking so today is
Monday and it is 11:30 okay so I've been
awake for almost 24 hours so you left at
noon what day Sunday okay yesterday and
what was going on before you left the
house detective Smith is attempting to
establish timelines but this proves
difficult due to Ellen continued lying
in
evasion my father was very upset about
[Music]
something what was he upset about I
can't recall he has very violin
outbursts okay my dog was hit by a car
because he smashed a glass table onto my
dog and the gate was open so my dog ran
outside and he got hit by a car my
goodness when did that happen a couple
of weeks ago okay
so what was going on yesterday to make
you
leave just didn't really like the
environment I just didn't like the vibe
okay so who was home when you left my
sisters and my dad okay where's my dad
now Ellen attempts to act as though
she's concerned about her father but she
fails badly consider which behavioral
cues indicate deception and post the
time stamps in the
comments I don't know
so you leave what door did you leave out
of the front door okay and did you tell
anybody you were leaving
no then where'd you
go just turn here turn there just kind
of wandering around
town Ellen describes walking and seeing
the nearby Market though she says her
memory is fuzzy my memory is pretty
fuzzy though is it and she claims she
doesn't remember much else and then what
else did you
see nature mhm proceeding interrogation
investigators May engage in an exercise
termed perspective taking they Place
themselves in the suspect's shoes
suspects will often prepare themselves
to answer questions that are Central to
the crime they committed by viewing the
situation from suspects perspectives
investigators are more likely to
determine what questions suspects might
expect or not expect investigators will
then begin the interrogation by asking
asking anticipated questions to
establish a behavioral Baseline and
follow by asking unanticipated questions
this allows investigators to make a
comparison between Baseline responses
and responses that suspects provide when
caught off
guard well at some point you must have
met up with some friends oh yeah I ran
into them where were you when you saw
them can't
remember
okay so I feel a little bit tiny like we
might just be like playing cat and mouse
and going back and forth okay in
addition to displaying high levels of
resistance Ellen pushes back at the
investigator she exhibits prolonged eye
contact this is a confrontational
Behavior indicating aggressiveness she
will continue to do this periodically
throughout the interrogation your
sisters have actually been already
talked to by somebody and they are
pretty good on their times when they saw
you because they were getting up and and
alarms were set and looking at tablets
and things like
that okay and so you know I just want to
have an honest conversation with you I
think that uh your sisters are are
beyond scared beyond
worried okay like for
instance the dog where's the dog where
is my dog is what's its name squeaker
beak or something Sparkle beak Sparkle
beak where is he
you tell
me where's my dog I don't
know where is Sparkle beak I don't know
okay well for me to have an answer about
where Sparkle beak
is I don't because you're actually the
one that took Sparkle
beak I took him for a walker on the
Block and then I dropped him back off
the sparkle beak is not anywhere to be
found your sisters remember you
taking your sisters actually remember
you taking him this morning and walking
out the door with sparkle
be where's my dog I think only you know
the answer to that no I don't it would
be nice to be able to at least let
Sierra and Olivia know I don't
know okay do you have a
boyfriend my parents made us break up oh
they did tell me about that they just
didn't like him
mhm note that detective Smith is skilled
at asking very open-ended questions to
entice Ellen to speak open Ed questions
encourage narratives that are rich in
detail and allow investigators to
collect further information and insight
related to the
case how'd you meet him
school at South okay and so you've been
out of school for a bit mhm but your
parents didn't like him yeah how come
they didn't like him I don't know well
you must have had some kind of
conversation about why your parents
don't like your boyfriend they they're
just like we don't like this guy get rid
of him so what did you do I ended it
what was that boyfriend's name
Gavin
Justin
H what's his last name can't remember I
wasn't dating him for very long maybe
two weeks you don't know your boyfriend
of two weeks last name it's
no we could find him in a yearbook
though oh okay don't you think okay you
didn't have any other boyfriend no every
detail holds the potential to be
significant the non-verbal indicator
that follows is very subtle almost
unnoticeable I've had a few like weak
relationships but I don't really
consider those to be
real everything is noteworthy when it
comes to body language analysis note
that displays asymmetrical eye blanking
and has done so several times throughout
the interrogation up to this point as
part of a standard neurological
examination practitioners document
asymmetrical facial movement including
eye blanking as well as outof thee
ordinary ocular movement blanking is
controlled by the nervous system
specifically through voluntary neural
control in the autonomic nervous system
this could be a sign of a neurological
neuros psychological or psychological
issue as well as medication or drug use
over tiredness may also cause
asymmetrical eye blanking and Ellen has
purportedly been awake for approximately
24 hours or more although over tiredness
is a likely cause we must also note that
Ellen displays other abnormal eye
movements at different points during the
interrogation as well as significantly
and consistently odd behavior we can
only speculate what exactly this may be
but we do know there is a strong
possibility that each time Ellen does
this she is experiencing some form of
abnormal brein activity tell me about
the boyfriend you had that your um Dad
thought was too old for
you oh he just oh yeah that's another
situation my dad just flat out I don't
like this guy you need to break up with
them and of course I want my father's
wishes for the person I'm
seeing who was the guy that was too old
for
you I won't give names so what was that
circumstance though tell me about
that my parents are very controlling
yeah my dad is very abusive
mhm in what way
verbally emotionally when I did
something that he didn't like he would
grabb me right here and he'd pin me
against the wall and then what would
happen then my little sisters would
freak out and then he'd stop so what was
being said or what was being done or
what happened to lead up to him putting
his hand on you I honestly don't know
I'd like to know that myself well I
don't have that answer because you were
the one that was there well like I said
he was drunk but he's done it sober as
well but what words were being said like
you mhm it's very emotionally damaging
MH to hear your father tell you that mhm
and who all was there when that happened
just me after school
I thought you said your sisters were
there Ellen shared only moments ago that
her sisters asked him to stop so who was
home when you left my sisters and my dad
okay here she explains that she was
alone when it happened investigators may
ask the same questions repeatedly to
look for the slightest deviation in
suspect stories particularly to those
who display high levels of resistance
like Ellen does among the handful of
Ellen's friends and acquaintances who
spoke to the police and or accepted our
invitation to interview to mentioned
that Ellen was not always honest and she
came to school one day with a thing on
her leg and said it was from her sisters
pushing her but I don't know because
Ellie has kind of lied to me before
which did hurt Jillian mcer shared the
story of an event that occurred closely
preceding Aaron's murder with police
mcer stated she decided at that point
that she could not forgive Ellen for
what she'd done she was telling her
father that she was at my house when she
was actually at her boyfriend's house so
I got a call from Alie that was very
frantic saying I need you to cover for
me so of course I'm thinking okay maybe
something really bad is going on so her
dad calls me and of course I cover for
her and then he finds out so he ends up
thinking that I was covering for her the
entire time when I did not have a clue
that she was lying it was this one time
I thought maybe she's in a dangerous
situation of course I'm going to help
her because she's my best friend and I
trusted her and that was the wrong
decision Jillian ended her friendship
with Ellen after that night and
explained to the investigator that she
would never trust her ex-best friend
again she knew Ellen was going down a
wrong path and she refused to follow
here sitting opposite a trained
investigator Ellen does exactly what
cost her Jillian's friendship she lies
yeah sometimes I go we go over there by
ourselves when we just want to get away
from the other two having two younger
sisters is stressful everything's an
argument MH I'm tired mhm the following
questions are generic about whereabouts
the last time she saw her father and
some of her locations over the past 24
hours Smith is establishing a timeline
and frame of reference to compare it to
what she knows about Ellen and the crime
and what she will learn from Russell's
and Gavin's interrogations so you were
at the the park on the other side of the
street from Dairy Queen and
Blackbird and then you saw your friend
and what were your friends
doing just hanging out eating goofballs
okay we know that Ellen and said friends
were certainly not just hanging out
being goofballs Ellen does not appear to
be attached to what she says seeming
Guiltless she also comes off as equally
removed from impending consequences as
an honors student with Stellar grades
Ellen has demonst rated Advanced
cognitive ability she would need to
possess assets like strong critical
thinking skills working and long-term
memory and at least an average or above
IQ to excel as she has if Ellen is
intellectually gifted we have less of an
explanation for why she consistently
tells lies that she cannot keep up with
her approach to evasion and resistance
is persistent but not logical let alone
strong and it brings up a question as to
whether Ellen is in a normal healthy
State of Mind at the time of this
interrogation a more Sinister
explanation Ellen could be doing this
intentionally manipulating the
investigator and setting the scene for
an insanity defense and then what was
the
conversation hey what are you doing
nothing much what are you doing just
walking
around uh you want to hang out sure and
we started walking and when do you think
that was I'm not quite
sure what kind of C is your dad
drive Grand something what color is it
uh like goldish silver okay when's the
last time you were in that car when he
uh drove me to the store detective Smith
continues to ask questions surrounding
details of the crime she has reasonable
suspicion that Ellen was in that car
only hours ago with her dead father in
the trunk and she's probing for
Behavioral discrepancies between answers
Ellen provides here and answers Ellen
provided earlier when responding to
questions unrelated to the crime when's
the last time you drove that car the
last time I drove that car when I parked
the car at Walmart okay and that was so
today's Monday and you said that was a
couple days ago M what time a
day we had to get something for dinner
so I'd say about 6:00 p.m. and who all
went to Walmart just me and my dad
okay what' you guys get
meat what kind like what were you guys
making oh I'm vegetarian so I Don't
Really Care by the way did you know
sausages are actually the leftover pig
guts and intestines and the heart and
the liver pork
chops they're
used okay
okay when's the last time you saw your
dad yesterday
I'm too tired to keep talking I'm really
sorry you want to take a little break
okay do you want some water or anything
no thank you you just want to sit here
for a few minutes I'd like a place to
lay down and sleep okay well you just
sit tight for a few minutes and we'll
try to figure that out okay okay
[Music]
it may be difficult to imagine that this
mild-mannered 15-year-old girl conspired
to kill her father she has denied
knowledge and culpability and claimed
abuse she has likewise lied consistently
throughout the interrogation many
involved in this case seem to want an
answer to a question they are hesitant
to ask was Ellen truly a victim of abuse
or is she lying we spoke to multiple
sources who questioned why Ellen planned
and encouraged the murder of her father
when other options of ESC escap from the
alleged abuse were available to her they
argued that she could have gone to the
police her doctor the fire station or
other local sources of support they
asked why she'd not chosen to run away
they admitted that they simply couldn't
understand what had happened it's
relevant to note that cases of patricide
are extremely rare the circumstances of
Aaron's tragic murder were less than
0.002% likely to happen this innocent
sweet sounding 15-year-old girl is not a
typical young teenager her actions were
so unusual that even the FBI lacks the
words to describe them ultimately though
Ellen didn't swing the baseball bat that
killed her father Gavin was kind of one
of those kids that kind of
everybody knew at least because he uh
had kind of a very specific outward kind
of image that I think he was trying to
um display you know um very dark very um
kind of shady you know overall I he
really was relatively nice but just kind
of a weird weird kid was a you know a
normal guy it was really cool you know
he's always outgoing he was an open
person he was like I don't he had
friends but he wasn't like popular if
that made sense it just makes sense that
he would do something like that I mean
he makes threats to kill people he
obviously has the outward image of
somebody who it seemed like he's he was
playing an imitation game it's like the
classic you know trench coat Mafia at
your school like it seemed like he
wanted to be one of the Coline Shooters
many of those who knew Gavin held mixed
perceptions of him from multiple
accounts he seemed to be as much of a
friend as he was an enemy as normal as
he was eccentric and as outgoing as he
was reserved some said that they noticed
him changing over the couple of years
leading up to Aaron's murder others said
that he had always been the way he was
regardless of whether pre-murder
impressions of Gavin were positive or
negative most who responded to our
request to interview didn't believe that
he could have done what he did he was
never like that man no one would have
ever guessed that he would have been a
murderer you know in Social environments
he can be cool if you're just with him
like he'll start saying that makes you
think like you shouldn't say that don't
say that to anybody else you know I mean
like keep
that Gavin's behavior and responses to
investigators framed within the context
of what family and old friends and
acquaintances have said serve as an
opportunity for a unique insight into a
crime that no one anticipated this
interrogation occurred less than a day
after Gavin bludge and Aon to death but
shortly after he sits he light-heartedly
mechanically asks how's your morning
been so far busy busy
yeah mark this heavy contrast as our
first behavioral observation of Gavin he
displays no visible signs of remorse
just as we observed in Ellen Gavin
appears unfaced by the seriousness of
his past actions and present situation
whereas Ellen initially presented as
emotionally flat Gavin Teeters on the
edge of
jovial this is the start of what is
known as the read technique the first
step in such technique is isolation
which they've done for an extended
period the Second Step deployed here is
called maximization the read technique
recommends 5 minutes of isolation but
Gavin has been isolated for hours with
the exception of an officer keeping a
close watch on him following isol ation
and maximization the re method
incorporates three primary categories
fact analysis investigative interview
and interrogation as part of the fact
analysis step investigators gather the
facts involved in the case and analyze
them to search for motive potential to
commit the crime and likelihood to
commit the crime law enforcement will
use both dependent and independent
corroborating evidence in this stage
during this stage investigators develop
a full understanding of the crime scene
and other relevant aspects of the
crime all right
so
um we've been me and Jim have been have
spent about four hours with you probably
know's Mike yeah
W and uh detective Stephanie Smith has
been about the same amount of time with
Ellie and I just want to throw some
things at you so all I want you to do
right now is just listen to me okay and
let you know what's going on okay okay
step one positive confrontation at this
point the investigators have acquired
enough evidence to reasonably suspect
that Gavin committed the crime as part
of positive confrontation the primary
investigator lays it all out on the
table objectively stating the facts he
does this in an intentionally soft
soothing voice to appear non-threatening
and to give Gavin a false sense of
security Mike took us out to H analou
and pointed out the tar
and we've we have people out there right
now recovering Ellie's dad he's deceased
Ellie's dad was basically wrapped up in
a a a blanket and a tarp and taken out
and dumped the investigator opts to use
words that are non-accusatory while
presenting the evidence he does not say
you took his body and dumped it he says
his body was taken out and dumped the
latter is passive voice as opposed to
active controlling suspect levels of
resistance and defensiveness is critical
to the success of an interrogation we
don't know if this is something that's
been planned out a long time ahead or if
this was just like last night you guys
decide to go over there and get La the
hell out of a bad situation the
investigator implements step two theme
development here he frames the crime
from a perspective that fulfills Gavin's
moral
justifications this is the
investigator's moral theme if Gavin
murdered Aaron he did it to protect
Ellen this will occur in bill as the
interrogation progresses the
investigators pre-plan this likely
structuring it around information
gleaned from other sources like Gavin
was only protecting Ellie we will call
the investigator's theme development the
Hero theme this isn't a matter of when
it happened where it happened who was
involved it's more a matter of why this
happened and what was going on through
all all of you guys' Minds at the time
we don't take sides in these kind of
cases we're basically truth Seekers
we're here to seek the truth as to what
happened and Ellie has been 100%
Cooperative with us are you Ellie no
what's your name I have the right
training Sil and then how long have you
known Ellie Ellie it's been almost a
year now I'd say Okay boyfriend
girlfriend it's only about 6 months
there's some information that Ellie
might be pregnant as she told do
that okay Gavin confirms that he was
both dating and sleeping with Ellen that
is he confirms that he was both dating
and sleeping with a minor it took a
handful of seconds for this investigator
to prompt Gavin to admit to a statutory
offense he he would like hang around
middle schools when he had turned 18 is
when everybody like found out he was he
was with like a 15year old people were
automatically like okay bro like that's
not cool and a lot of people stopped
talking
he wanted her at any any cost no one
else could have her because Gavin shows
Little Resistance and doesn't reject or
deny the investigator's accusations the
investigator can bypass steps three and
four of the read interrogation technique
handling denials and overcoming
objections instead he jumps straight
into step five of the read technique
procurement and retention of suspect's
attention the investigator must guide
Gavin's attention away from the
potential repercussions of the crime and
back to the main theme he does this
through minimum ization or through
rationalizing that the crime was not
that serious of an offense you guys are
only what 3 4 years apart a little over
three yeah yeah okay because of the
investigator's redirection here Gavin is
back in the the hero mindset from
Gavin's perspective investigators are
only concerned about Aaron's abuse of
his daughter not his murder and Gavin
has exactly the information they need
her dad's an alcoholic and he goes and
like and he's and she said that he's
beaten her and locked her in the
bathroom before and stuff has she ever
told you that anything in regards to
that was just recently that's what set
me off so okay this is a turning point
in just over 10 minutes Gavin has fully
bought into the Hero theme the next
steps are crucial to the success of the
interrogation they almost have a full
confession but sticking true to the read
method the investigator immediately
continues as though Gavin merely
commented on the state of the weather
the approach to theme development was
Gavin's Achilles heel his greatest
weakness his crime was gruesome and
ruthless but he seemed to desire to be a
hero as much as he desired to be a
villain among the dozens of friends and
acquaintances we interviewed only one
confirmed a possible explanation as to
why this theme works so well for
investigators he was very protective of
the people he cared about actually how
we met I was I was bad mouthing a couple
people not realizing that uh he was
connect Ed to those people they had
pissed me off and for whatever reason I
just wanted to talk and he gave me a
black eye although Jacob laughed it off
the example he gave supports the theory
that Gavin possesses a low anger
threshold meaning he's anger prone some
might argue that Gavin's actions display
extreme loyalty whereas others might
protest that they served as outlets for
his aggression when did she tell you
about that and what did she tell you
that was yesterday what what's your
understanding what he did to Ellie he
basically L laid next to her naked and
start and then so you mentioned that
that kind of set you off upset you
obviously it would upset me
too this is an empathy statement
something that encourages
reciprocity establishing reciprocity in
this case emotional reciprocity in an
interrogative setting is a form of
persuasion if the investigator provides
a small favor the suspect may feel a
need to return it thereby lowering
resistance
the empathy statement also creates an
opportunity for Gavin to elaborate on
what he meant when he said he lost it
but the investigator quickly moves on
once Gavin
responds linguistic analysis involves
the interpretation of words and phrases
in context so is a transitional
expression the simple linguistic
interpretation here is that Gavin wants
to move on from this topic of
conversation the investigator Inuits
this and immediately resumes asking
questions along the lines of the hero
theme and then so what was the plan
going over to Ellie's last night was it
to pick up her belongings and get her
out of that situation to pick her up
some stuff and get her out of there yeah
okay Aaron's he's H me get a gunpoint
before he's he's threaten my life and
held me a gunpoint before Aon has over
at his house mhm and then there was one
time he came over banging on my door cuz
he was all mad I I actually called you
guys for that because I was like I
didn't want to go out the door look out
the window see anything cuz I didn't
know if he had a gun or not but how long
ago was that that you called us I think
it was a month ago and then what was
when was the situation where he pointed
a gun at you where was that where did
that happen how long ago was that Gavin
describes his interactions with Aaron as
being characterized by fear he claims
that Aaron threatened him more than once
Beyond Gavin's reports of Aaron's
threatening behavior Ellen claimed to
him that Aaron abused her the fear
response is an evolutionary
physiological surviv mechanism that's
triggered in reaction to perceived
impending harm it's otherwise termed the
fight or flight response which includes
the following reactions fight flight
freeze and fawn we'll discuss the figh
ORF flight response concerning Gavin as
the interrogations progress so I went
over to his house one time this was
where I knew that he didn't like me or
whatever and like I came over and he's
like what the hell are you doing here
and then I'm like oh here say hi Ellie
she said that I was to come over she's
and he's like no so he grabbed a gun and
was like get the out of here I'm giving
you 20 seconds did Ellie witness that no
I I don't know what caused him to not
like me anymore okay so he was really
chillaxed I mean he was of course being
like protective dad said I'll knock out
your teeth if you ever hurt my daughter
and I was like yeah I understand does he
drink a lot so yes he is an alcoholic if
Aaron suffered from alcoholism Ellen
could have been in a considerably
unstable environment children of
individuals who struggle with alcoholism
are more likely to develop mental
illness moreover and in reference to
Ellen's claims greater consumption of
alcohol relates to Greater rates of
inappropriate unwanted advances so you
get this text you get this text
yesterday last night and when you got
over there what time of the morning do
you think it is now that you guys arrive
it was 2:30 in the morning 2:30 in the
morning mhm is when you guys get there
okay Gavin must be in his hero mindset
believing that the investigators view
his crime as morally justifiable wants
Gavin his prime to be more receptive
open and honest the primary investigator
dives into information gathering note
that the second investigator is present
to ensure proper execution of Step nine
of the read interrogation technique
converting an oral confession into a
written confession a third party
Witnesses and writes down suspect's
confessions where is she at when you
first see her she's poking her head no
being like hey come on in out of the out
of her bedroom window mhm okay and what
do you what do you and RJ do at that
point that point RJ was like okay and
then
umry um gas bubble or something um I go
in the window RJ Waits outside for he
waits outside and then do the bags start
getting passed out the
window yeah how bags do you think she
has ready to go at that point when you
get there Gavin appears calm and
collected unaffected by his present
circumstances however as the
investigator probes more deeply into the
specifics of that night Gavin crosses
his arms tightly over his chest this is
a self- pacifying behavior a self hug
meant to reduce stress and regulate
emotions when we got there she had four
bags she had a guitar the pellet rifle
the the pellet rifle yeah and then she
had like a makeup kit and then another
thing in it so now it's you and Ellie in
the bedroom and you mentioned that Dad
heard you did Dad hear you guys in there
or did well he got up and then Ellie was
like oh I'll just go out and act like
I'm going to the bathroom or
whatever cuz I mean I was I didn't want
this guy to come and start Bea the crap
out of me so how'd the conversation go
between Ellie and her dad at that point
when she's saying I got up and went go
pee and he's like all right well stop
scaring me with all the people trying to
break in lately and I was like wait what
cuz that was the first night we had G I
mean we went over there last night but I
mean we we didn't go for it cuz um her
dad's girlfriend was there okay Saturday
night so you'd went over Saturday night
to try to get her out of there yeah I
know I'm in serious trouble aren't I
well we need to figure out what happened
and you know there's a lot of things in
play here but so now you've been there
about 20 minutes before
Ellie interacts with her
dad his tone is even and his responses
are level but when Gavin removes his
jacket we can reasonably assume that he
has more stress than he's letting on
actions like tugging at a sh collar or
removing clothing as Gavin does here may
be referred to as ventilating behaviors
when circumstances are heating up humans
May lean on these behaviors to cool
down and I know this is going to be a
little bit difficult to talk about Gavin
but you got to be 100% honest and
truthful with this what happens
next so then Ellie got out and they
waited in the car and then Ellie went to
the car yeah did she go out the window
or the front door she went out the
window okay as Gavin answers he rubs his
nose while nose touching under high
stress circumstances does not
necessarily indicate deception it does
indicate heightened stress it appears
that Gavin's feelings of discomfort are
buil building and when you said they
waited in the car are you talking about
RJ and her mhm I can tell you that the
car is seen on video on a surveillance
camera uh at a neighbor's house leaving
at about 5:50 in the morning if you're
getting into the into the bedroom at
about 2:30 you're talking about 3 hours
until you guys leave does that sound
about right yes okay that entire 3-hour
time uh what's what's going on inside
the bedroom I mean what's the purpose of
waiting so long we were trying to wait
for him to fall asleep again so that we
could get out okay and then he starts to
wake up and I just acted on Instinct and
I I I don't know what what I was doing
we know that Gavin was aware of what he
was doing but it appears that he
displays little to no signs of
discomfort or deception in this moment
and then like I just kept hating him
until I until he stopped and then I
heard like gurgling and I was
like what what's going on I'm I'm really
sorry next Gavin does something
unexpected I know you are and I know
this is difficult and that's what we're
trying to
help were you let me ask you this G were
you upset because of everything that was
that Ellie had told
you okay I I didn't want to kill him I
didn't want to kill him right but why
not at 4:30 when you know she has the
keys why not just everybody go out the
window and Le Ellie hates her parents
she doesn't want to go back there again
she want she wanted him dead but I
didn't want to kill him and I was like
I'm not going to kill him she was all
like no I don't want him around me me I
don't want to around my sisters anymore
I mean so
sorry prison for murder aren't I well
that's what we need to figure out here
we need to figure out what your intent
was and it's important to know try to
protect Ellie okay my possible try it so
do you think that Ellie could have
influenced Gavin absolutely absolutely I
would never see my nephew acting in that
behavior of brutally killing somebody
from my point of view and everybody else
you know my family we all agreed that
Ellie was 100% 100% at fa it was not
long before Gavin admitted to his role
in executing Aaron's murder as opposed
to Ellen he put up little to no
resistance immediately acknowledging
that the events that morning had
transgressed and that he had solely
swung the bat that killed Aaron Russell
would prove even less resistant
uninhibited spilling nearly all details
involved in the crime just as Gavin
stated he was doing Russell insisted
that he was protecting Ellen what we are
about to observe is among the most
bizarre behavior we have seen in an
interrogation up to this
point is that a camera right there i'
rather not have a camera aimed at me I
don't you can talk to T the board but I
think they're required to so it's
nothing I've had a body cam all day I
mean well yeah see I don't my friend
we're recorded wherever we go you know
that even the police bathroom damn seems
like it probably yeah you have a seat
man that way I can sit
down well you can sit down yeah well I'm
not allowed to sit unless you're sitting
so that way I can sit Russell tries to
show dominance and control by stating he
doesn't want to be recorded and then
after the officer tells him he can sit
down he replies you can sit down this
immediately shows he's trying to display
his lack of fear of authority of the
three who participated in the crime
earlier that morning Russell appears to
be the least impacted while Gavin's
Behavior evolved from casually polite to
distraught and Ellen's from Flat to
angry Russell's is steadily
light-hearted and upbeat his conduct is
eccentric driven by a variety of
psychological factors that will break
down as his interrogation progresses my
mom kind of took him under her Wing
trying to help him he
mentioned that he's autistic and so he
has trouble finding work and it wasn't
too long before that that my youngest
son was diagnosed with autism so that
was our kind of like our instant
connection he did a lot of family things
with us he spent Easter with us he's
gone to dinners with us so we're pretty
close I mean he calls me his sister he
calls my mom mom really Pro huh it's
kind of a nice place it's probably sound
proof so that people uh well people can
get loud cells CU sometimes we bring
like drunks here from dry drunks are the
worst yeah not a big fan of them
of like I protect people like I said
Russell persistently claims that he owns
a protection business he un shakingly
asserts this and the police don't at any
point question it when individuals are
convinced of something untrue despite
all evidence indicating otherwise for an
extended period they're said to hold a
delusion often times Illusions are
bizarre meaning they're highly
improbable or not set in reality EG an
individual consistently believes that
the neighbor reads Minds other times
delusions are non-bizarre involving
beliefs that are within the realm of
possibility EG consistently believing
one is being followed Russell's
protection business could be a delusion
while outside of the norm it could
nonetheless be true qualifying as
non-bizarre we would require additional
information such as input from friends
and those Russell claims to protect to
determine this but um I try not to
resort to violence good I always try and
talk to the
person uh her father is a
drunk compared to what she's told me and
I've only talked to him over the phone
probably once or twice uhhuh he seemed
really not that good of a father really
yeah he uh her father yeah who is her
father's name you know I all I know in M
know is uh Aaron that's all I know of
course then again I know like Aaron
Martinez Aaron for father but I don't
know his last name
uh and I know Aaron
Novi so okay Russell starts rambling and
the investigator allows them to do this
this is a strategy to keep the accused
talking so they feel comfortable and the
more comfortable a person feels the more
likely they are to say something
incriminating this is also a way for the
officer to build trust I met him I was
living in Medford working at a place
called The Purple Parrot he was trying
to find a job so he could find a place
to live because he was homeless he was
very sweet very clean cut you know very
nice he's just a savior that's all he
wanted to do was help people you know
all his life he was let down he went
from foster home to foster home foster
home so I would let him come in to get
warm and then one day he didn't even
have a coat and it was like 3° and I go
where you going and he say well I'm just
going to walk around until McDonald's
opens and I'm like no no you're going to
come home with me so you'll be warm you
know I felt like you know enough was
enough you know this poor kid needs some
help and no one's going to help him I
think it was like a good two years that
he was in our lives mostly in my mom's
life like she he really did become like
a son to her anytime he was looking for
help or or willing to take help she
would help him Russell stated previously
that he's Di diagnosed with autism as a
neurodiverse individual Russell likely
struggles with certain aspects of
communication although he largely
displays well-developed social skills he
exhibits circumstantial speech here the
various individuals named Aaron are not
directly related to the conversation at
hand we'll continue to observe examples
that support this diagnosis as well as
others throughout the interrogation yeah
I know I don't think I've ever met her
father before I don't think I've met her
before you don't want to I've never met
you and I don't think I've met hunting
rifle yeah is a nice one or I've never
seen it oh okay I've never met her had
one uh she told me because uh he likes
to drink a lot oh okay so and the other
night the reason why I was helping her
was because he went into her room M and
laid next to her uh I don't like was
going really she tell you that yeah and
that's why I got her out okay so yeah we
went down to uh the park we met up there
I told her just like leave everything
yeah and just like get the hell out of
there grab like a bag of clothes um
Union I
think he says Union is a question with
his voice trailing upward these are both
indications that he may be lying he
hasn't said um prior to this so it's not
a normal pattern of his speech and
answering a question with the inflection
of a question shows uncertainty in your
answer either because you're lying or
aren't confident in the response being
correct yeah but I've always been kind
of
a a protector of people so
okay this isn't the first time Russell
is claimed to be a protector of people
he looks out for people and I think that
he takes it a little too far one of my
family members drank a lot and he wanted
to go over and beat him up because he
was emotionally abusive to me I really
disagree on what he did but I think that
he had the right intentions he would
always give you a jacket off his back I
mean he did it in the worst way but he
just cares and he also had this Grand
idea of creating a community for
homeless people or just young people
that need help that don't have help so
it's like he was always trying to go out
and resource that like trying to build
that up he still does he still talks
about that people looked at him like a
protector and he really liked that he it
made him
feel valued gave him a sense of purpose
because that was another problem he
didn't really have a sense of purpose he
was just kind of left in the
wind unless people piss me off then they
become the uh not really Target in a bad
way yeah just like Target as in like
someone that needs a firm talking to
okay or a slap across the face depending
on how much they pay for that you been
paid yet or not financially no because I
can't legally work with the SSI yeah
because I can only work under the table
jobs and those don't how much SSI do you
get uh 735 plus a $22 check a month yeah
Russell begins giving the officer
details of his family and personal life
which is a good indication he's
developed trust with him the
investigators enter the room and the
officer asked one of them to step out
like can I talk to you for just a quick
minute hey hey take care buddy you do
likely to brief him on what they discuss
that is relevant to the case to see if
he is consistent and possibly to also
let him know a little about his
personality so the investigator knows
the best approach and techniques to
deploy and getting what he needs from
the interrogation before we get too
wrapped up in this thing I just got here
to work yeah so I kind of want to
explain why we're here today for you and
just have I don't even know why I'm here
okay I'm going to have you just sit and
listen to what the story is and then
yeah I have nothing to hide so okay good
you were very Cooperative with this on
know that Ste except for um when the car
like drove up onto the sidewalk I was
like a little bit struggled yeah
surprised right
yeah not too surprised my line of work
and then they told me to get on the
ground and I was trying to go on the
ground okay and they actually like
helped me onto the
ground so like they told me get on the
ground so I'm trying to get on the
ground you don't have to push my ass
seriously seriously I can do it on my
own
dumb take a moment to place yourself in
Russell's shoes this is more than likely
not something someone would say to a
member of law enforcement in this
situation it's not tactical let alone
remotely helpful he does this countless
times and it becomes increasingly clear
that there are some other disturbing
factors at play surrounding his
involvement in the crime but you seem
like a nice guy uh the guy that I was
talking to seemed like a nice guy so no
Sprite perfect is that good yeah do
perfect now all I need is a cigarette
and I'll be happy but I doubt we can
though you want to get a smoke sure do
you have any smoke I got some in my desk
are we about to smoking here yeah yeah
we can go outside and smoke oh go
outside and have a cigarette real quick
sure all right let's go yeah cuz I smoke
uh I talk better when I have a
cigar right now I'm like stressed out
and I don't know what going on
understand the investigators give
Russell a drink and allow him to go out
and have a cigarette both things are
done to further put him at ease and to
gain favor with him sometimes it's used
as a carrot to get someone to confess
and they will tell the person that they
can smoke after they tell them what
happened Etc people being interrogated
are sometimes not yet under arrest so
they can leave if they want to and they
certainly cannot be forced to speak the
police try to make them feel less
inclined want to leave by giving them
food and drinks and cigarette breaks and
so as not to violate any due process
rights Russell proceeds to tell
investigators everything they need to
know you can sit in that chair over
there and bring your food in I've got
the oh okay let me have your pot bottle
FR came with
it that's
soft as has been the case with Russell
so far we have few words to explain what
exactly it is that happens
next there hard nation in the hospital
on this BL ones are kind of over the
next few minutes Russell continues to
narrate his experience eating McDonald's
french fries but he also behaves in ways
which we really don't know how to
describe you go good with these These
are furry
part of the read interrogation technique
discussed earlier involves isolation or
letting suspects sit on their own
without much stimulation or social
interaction the goal is to increase
suspects feelings of Panic or wanting to
escape it seems that Russell responds
differently to attempts at isolation
than most others between his dramatic
displays of odd behavior he begins to
leak disturbing information critical to
the case we begin to receive small doses
of the terrifying
truth oh it wasn't really selfdefense so
much as it was defending
her
that you're listening and on my
conversations aren't
you camera
off yeah
I don't care if you're fed or
not I can still twist your little
mind don't piss me off nothing appears
to register for Russell in terms of the
gravity of his situation he's
unashamedly confrontational with law
enforcement when they're out of sight he
holds delusions of grander specifically
related to power these types of
delusions often form when individuals
have been abusive situations in which
they were powerless and I think that's
really why he went to go help well what
he thought was helping these people that
he got wrapped up in I mean literally
for his 21st birthday he had never had a
party I made him a cake we had a little
party at my daughter's house he ran
around with the kids so even though he's
21 he was playing with 10-year-old you
know and having a great time I let him
to be a little kid because he told me he
never got to be a little kid for kid
that are high functioning they're you
know very giving uh loving they just
want
acceptance two cops were
nice very nice gu he was actually pretty
good
too very understanding actually bought
me food last time and this
time maybe I should talk to him more
often because Russell continues to talk
and is making useful and incriminating
statements the investigator will likely
let him sit in the room alone talking
for as long as he continues to do so I a
know that Russell had numerous
encounters with law enforcement leading
up to this moment there are several
charges on his record preceding this
crime including sodomy and abuse in the
third
degree I wonder if I can be an
undercover
agent had a really long one
there
St there's evidently no one in the room
with Russell so he's either vocalizing
an imagine dialogue or hearing someone
who's not there if the latter is true
this could be an auditory hallucination
meaning that Russell is hearing
something
non-existent this coupled with his
delusions would strongly indicate that
he is in a state of psychosis
individuals commonly reference the word
psych IC when they see others acting in
an aggressive unusual unstable or other
abnormal manner but the technical
definition involves issues with reality
testing distinguishing between what is
objectively real and what is objectively
not real behavioral manifestations may
include delusions or hallucinations and
we know that at a minimum Russell
experiences delusions we'll later see
that Russell previously commented that
he suffers from bipolar disorder bipolar
disorder creates abnormal swings from
neutral mood states to periods of
abnormally high energy Andor
irritability or Mania to periods of
abnormally low energy Andor sadness or
depression this mental illness affecting
nearly 2.6% of the United States
population is the country's sixth
leading cause of disability and it
tracks that Russell is on that list up
to this point we've witnessed
particularly strange Behavior but none
so strange is what
follows you do know I know you're
listening
right so listen
here Ellie
frier is my
client my protect
E I would like to see her
asking being
polite I know you're looking directly at
me aren't you the information I gave
is not worth six
bucks it's worth a lot
uh more Russell behaves as though he's a
super villain he's so removed from the
reality of the situation that it may
prove difficult to imagine the events
that occurred earlier that
day when he accidentally turns off the
recording device he seems surprised that
he can do so and begins playing with it
the gravity of the situation he's in is
clouded but we don't yet know by what
he's visibly happy with this new sense
of control he feels by being able to
turn the recording device on and off red
means you can't hear me green you can
Gavin and Ellie are to be released to me
because the assault her father did the
morning of the incident defending a
female now here's the
thing I know the cop's Twisted little
pathetic rule
game and actually sometimes I like to
think that I invented the rule book I'm
not exactly bragging but uh I use
reverse
psychology which makes me be able
to Russell Steeples his hands which is a
gesture to indicate superiority over
those you're speaking to make you think
it's not
Gavin but in
fact your own kid by reverse
psychology making you looked like the
lunatic we can play it the easy way or
the hard way I'm talking nice you got
two choices one put a bullet through my
head or two for all the evidence that I
gave you guys right there on a silver
platter right there down to the last
detail not one thing
missing a whole list step by step by
step even a third grader could read how
easy that was for one Ellie is still
technically a
minor Russell is speaking to the
officers in a condescending tone and
looking at a non-existent watch he's
under the delusion that because he has
confessed every detail of the crime step
by step they owe him something now you
want to play hard ball I played baseball
when I was younger H I wouldn't go there
and I know everything that I'm saying is
being recorded and I'm doing it on
purpose
I can easily turn the speaker off and
rant and then you guys will come in
thinking I'm a looney because you don't
hear me here's the thing I'm not the one
with the dut fetish give a cop a donut
and he'll want a coffee to go with it
give a mouse a cookie and he'll want a
glass of milk give a mousse of muffin
and he'll want something else but here's
my favorite one what is it when a cup
car is
towed by a tow truck P
Port when the officers don't respond to
his threats Russell begins making police
jokes and using police stereotypes he
continues on his narcissistic rant and
delusions of having control and
dominance in this situation so we can
either tell pig jokes all day or we can
have a little chat
I'm very
uh good at convincing
people and I don't even use
hypnosis I think I just ad no again
Russell speaks to someone who is not
there this is either a hallucination or
vocalized internal
dialogue so Ellie is to be handed over
to me as soon as you guys can uh
get her
here
two Gavin is released so that when
Ellie's kid is born it can have a
father Ellen had faked a pregnancy and
there was talk that she used this as a
tool to motivate Gavin and Russell to
kill Aaron when she first got locked up
she was TR to her that he should was
pregnant she was not she told you she
was pregnant I've known for about two
weeks now two weeks she told you okay
did you tell Ellie you don't want to
kill him I told her like I don't want to
do this I told her
that that
like I didn't I I didn't want to kill
him so when these kind of things happen
gab there's usually something that
clicks and you make a decision on what
you're going to do the investigator
starts establishing premeditation which
is required for a first-degree murder
charge how long before you hit with the
bath has that conversation come up she's
been talking about it for a long time I
I tried to be civil with with Aaron and
stuff I was like should I offer to go
and have a cup of coffee and discuss why
he he has beef with me so going back to
you guys getting there around 2:30 in
the morning is it possible you got there
early earlier in 2:30 I mean we were at
Union at like about 1:30 and did you
guys have to wait around for a little
while
we did Ellie was like just wait till he
falls asleep then come in and where did
you grab the bat
from H where did you grab the bat from
before you walked into the front room no
I wanted to keep the bat for myself okay
ironically the bat that Gavin wanted to
keep for himself the bat that Gavin used
to beat Aaron to death was the bat that
Aaron had on hand for protection at best
Gavin used the murder weapon that was
most convenient at worst Gavin took
pleasure in this irony claiming an
ultimate power by using Aaron's sense of
Safety and Security as a weapon against
him and walking out the door with it
perhaps Gavin desired the bat for
himself as a trophy so now you're
walking from Ellie's room with the bat
and the plan for you is to walk out the
front door that's what I was I wasn't I
mean Ellie wanted me to kill him but I
didn't want to I was planning on just
walking straight out the front door did
you play along with Ellie and say okay
I'll kill him mhm you did but then he
woke up did you tell Ellie how you were
going to kill him no did she ever
mention hey use the
bat well she said that if you if I
wanted to I could and I was like it's
not that hard to punch someone in the
throat here Gavin displays an outof
Place boastful sense of Pride over
holding violence related knowledge this
is a strong indicator of aggressive
tendencies family and numerous friends
and acquaintances confirmed that Gavin
held a violent streak another of Gavin's
close Old Friends shared the following
we used to get together and like play
football or different things like that
with a bunch of guys we knew and a
couple different times he ended up
punching somebody like I think he broke
some his nose at one point and then a
couple other times yeah sort of
unprovoked kind of fight somebody at at
our youth group it was more of just a
one or two thing and then he would walk
away it's not like he was trying to kill
somebody at that time
obviously an additional past friend
described that Gavin displayed unusually
aggressive behavior a week preceding the
murder yeah yeah so last time I had seen
him we were just hanging out like smoked
a little bit wanted to like wrestle me
like he's like I know he's like I'm a
black belt like we should fight he's
never really wanted to fight so I didn't
know if maybe he was like trying to get
prepared for you know like this
obviously is like afterthoughts like oh
that's weird you know like he wasn't
very good at it I don't think he was
really a black though it was just like
what kayen who had attended South meford
High School with Gavin explained that
everyone in the school knew that he was
scary and seemed dangerous when he
shared his friend's experience he
threatened one of my best friends where
he had actually sent like a picture of a
revolver to him making the threat that
he was going to you know harm him um and
then when they took it to the school the
school didn't do anything about it we've
watched Gavin cry and state repeatedly
that he did not want to kill Aaron we've
also heard friends and family share
stories depicting that he was quick to
rage often searching for an outlet his
aggression whether it existed in tackle
football playful wrestling or defending
his friends it leads us to a question of
whether Aaron was another one of Gavin's
Outlets so she hands you the bat in the
bedroom and tells you to go take D out
okay what were her exact words she said
go out in the front room take him out
and text me let me know when it's done
and to me I was like okay so I guess she
wants me to kill him but I don't want to
kill him so you kick the bin and the dog
barks where's the dog at sleep keeping
on the couch with him how do you know
the dog was on the couch with him like
cuz I was like when we were in the house
like I heard like one of the reasons
he's used the word like periodically
throughout the interrogation but here
Gavin uses it almost back to back this
is a notable deviation from Baseline and
a strong indicator of General stress
most likely nervousness in the context
of the topic before leaving CU we heard
him say s move and I was like oh okay
cuz like he's probably Disturbed a
little bit is it possible Gavin that you
hit him while he was
asleep I don't think so no is it
possible though it's possible he might
still been
asleep this eliminates any possible
self-defense Theory his lawyers might
have wanted to use a
trial I I couldn't see anything was
Pitch Black what makes you think that he
woke
up he was like what the who were you but
is that after you hit him once or before
that was before
okay earlier in the interrogation Gavin
had clearly described that Aaron woke up
and in turn Gavin acted on Instinct he's
beginning to contradict himself but it's
not long before we hear the full truth
is it possible that he might not have
said that and you just hit him while he
was asleep on the
couch I don't remember are you 100% sure
he said who's
that or could you just be telling me
that thinking
that Trying to minimize this making it
look a little better cuz I just hit him
while he was asleep and then okay so
let's if you're going to tell the truth
let's tell the truth all the way okay
okay I'm sorry was he awake when you hit
him no yes or no no okay I mean I I
wasn't wanting to kill
him but then the dog started barking and
I I knew where I was I just I just
snapped cuz I didn't want to have to
deal with him it was after like the
second swing he was like what the [ __ ]
and then was he ever able to get up off
the couch or did no and be Hest with us
don't try to minimize things how many
times do you think you hit him I think I
hit him about six times six times yeah
five or six times and were all those
hits where did you swing and hit him at
like his chest in his head okay
ultimately did he stop talking stop
moving mhm okay when did you turn the
light on like I I stood there for for a
little bit I I I don't know it seemed
like hours and I was just
like what did I just do okay like one
time we were at my mom out I told him to
come inside he wouldn't listen to me so
he went outside and cuz my mom's in a
wheelchair push my mom down the driveway
and my mom fell back and cracked her
head open oh my gosh I know this might
be tough Gavin but it's important to
know can you stand right there for me or
right there stand up for me and tell me
that first time you swung the bat tell
me exactly how you swung the bat the
first
time the investigator gets Gavin to
reenact the actual murder which helps
both verify the confession and to show
his actions match the evidence this
makes a false confession claim harder to
get
around count like it's like right here
okay his head's right here I'm standing
right here a little bit in an ankle and
I went over the shoulder the first time
and then I started going up above my
head and you the first time you swung it
it was over the
shoulder and all the rest of the times
you hit him did you come up over the top
yeah you work at Del Taco right mhm did
you take some gloves from work yeah okay
I was wearing gloves yeah are they light
blue gloves latex gloves and where did
you put those on before you went out in
the front room I had those on the entire
time cuz I I didn't want to I mean I was
really just planning going in and out
and trying to leave his like leave no
fingerprints or anything so and these
are the clothes that you were
wearing the this that you have on no
where the where are the clothes I went
home and I washed them okay are they in
the washer yeah is that is that over in
Almond no that was over at Bobby's and
and I have a note here but who's Bobby
Bobby Jackson is my best friend and I'm
his best friend been that way since like
sixth grade and Gavin kind of ended up
joining us in that Kyle shared that he
Bobby and Gavin were close but no one
else who he interviewed mentioned that
this Trio existed Gavin embodied
multiple personas he didn't belong to
any one group and those he regularly
spent time with seemed unaware of others
he regularly spent time with
interestingly Kyle and Bobby in one
location and Jacob in another claimed
that Gavin was living with them at the
time of the murder
we were close he was actually living
with me and another guy and his mother
when this all happened Gavin's friend
Christopher snow had also reported that
Gavin was his roommate at the time
Christopher spoke to the press the day
after the murder explaining he was
shocked disbelieving that Gavin and
Ellen were at odds with her father the
person who disagreed most with their
relationship according to Christopher
was Ellen's mother does anybody know
that you did this besides you and Ellie
and RJ did you tell anybody else no
Gavin may not have told anyone that he
followed through with Aaron's murder but
he certainly talked about wanting to
kill him no one we or the police spoke
with commented that they'd suspect that
he would go through with it but many
commented that he'd spoken of it in fact
one individual commented that Gavin
regularly told others that he could get
away with killing someone example would
be he would say something along the
lines of I'd be able to get away with
killing andd be easy I know all these
things I'll watch all these do dou
umentary like it was just something
normal to say everything in his life
seemed like it was a game to him
interestingly Gavin displays non-verbal
behaviors which indicate feelings of
insecurity and discomfort for example he
hunches his shoulders and Crosses his
arms tightly over his chest making
himself smaller and more contained
essentially an upright adapted version
of the fetal
position before you leave the house are
you being 100% honest with me that Ellie
was out in the
car cuz cuz I'm a bit confused cuz when
did she come back in to get the dog
that's she came back in after her after
I hit her dad note that Gavin commented
hit her dad not killed her dad this is
distancing language or language that
places psychological space between the
topic under discussion and the speaker
either Gavin doesn't register the murder
or he cannot stand the thought that he
killed someone why do you think he hit
him to me in my eyes I felt like he was
an enemy like he was out to hurt me okay
so what do you think happens when you
hit somebody in the head with an
aluminum
bat a lot of brain damage do you think
it could cause somebody to die yeah this
is to establish another element of
first-degree murder is that it must be
committed with some sort of intent to
kill the person the murderer must
therefore have attacked or harm their
victim with the purpose of ending their
life okay did you do anything to try to
give him a any kind of Aid no and how
does Ellie get in the house she just
comes in through the front door hold on
when she comes through the front door
what does she see she sees her dad
laying on the couch what did she say
what she didn't say
anything she just did it shock her was
she upset not really no did you tell her
what you did no was it obvious it was
obvious yeah okay this is to show that
Ellen knew this was going to happen and
that she was a co-conspirator so she
can't later deny knowing Gavin was
planning to kill him when Ellie comes in
is he making gurgling noises or is he
stopped making those noises he still
gurgling Gavin's body language is an
extreme show of emotional distress more
genuine than the adapted version We
witnessed previously he is sitting in an
upright fetal position holding his knees
to his chest this is blatantly self-
paaf indicating Gavin is far more
affected by this than his vocal tone and
straightforwardness suggest so she comes
in gets the dog does she go outside or
does she stay in the house with the dog
she just goes outside RJ and I we open
the trunk and then we put him in there
okay tell me about let's back it up and
walk through that slowly I'm sorry
individuals compress their lips under
periods of great distress Gavin's lips
have disappeared and RJ came in to the
front door and RJ saw it what a did RJ
say to you he was like oh God that's
gross and then I was like okay you grab
you grab the his feet and then we'll get
them out to the trunk and then we kind
of drug it through the yard and then we
just like lift them up into the trunk so
so um you're in the house do you guys go
back into the house after this is to
establish a possible burglary charge it
also shows the callousness and lack of
remorse after the fact for the crime
remember getting any money in the house
oh yeah she went and took some money
from her dad's wallet yeah how much cash
did she get she said it was like
$40 okay from his wallet yeah so he
obviously didn't have his wallet on him
yeah Ellen can argue that she planned
this to protect her sisters and she can
argue that he abused her but few words
if any explain why she would possess any
moral justification to steal from her
recently murdered father what was he
wearing on the couch when you turn the
light on wearing a black Raider shirt
and a pair of black shorts okay when did
she first bring out that she wanted her
dad dead like after he slapped her and
how long how long ago was that like this
was a week before she text me about
the this shows that this specific
incident of abuse was not the motive for
the murder at least not for Ellen a
prosecutor might submit to a jury that
the likely actual motive for the killing
of her father was him not letting his
minor daughter and Gavin date
okay and then once as that conversation
developed did you ever come to what are
we going to do with him afterwards I
mean our RJ was like trying to tell me I
have a friend we can go up leave the car
there he can tear the part car apart
that way there's no car left I'm very
uh good at convincing people so when did
you go to Bobby's
house Bobby's um I stop I stopped by I
just uh like swapped clothes and I left
again no was awake so and then you end
up over on Almond Street okay
investigators later learned that Gavin
had led them astray hoping they would
stop by Bobby's house so his friends
would know that something had happened
and run through us with what you were
wearing at the time that you hit him
with the bat I was I was wearing my my
gray hoodie and not that one it was a
gray pullover hoodie it was it wasn't
this one though like all my hoodies what
was on under the gray hoodie and then I
had on uh it was my Batman t-shirt I
think okay and that I think I I actually
left at the house but I don't think
there was any blood or anything on that
and what pants were you wearing well I'm
still wearing the same pants I didn't
change my pants I changed my jackets so
you were wearing those pants yeah and
what shoes were you wearing oh was one
of my boots the ones you have on now
yeah or the ones I don't think you're
wearing them now or they took them off
yeah okay what do you do when you get to
the location where you guys dump
Aon we kind of sit there and were like
ah nature it was It was kind it was
peaceful and it was relaxing Gavin
discusses how it was peaceful and
relaxing looking at the woods and Lake
while sitting in the car with Aaron's
dead body in the trunk this shows a
serious lack of
remorse when you get there though what
do you guys do oh I'm sorry um so we
kind of sat and we we kind of enjoyed
the view cuz it was nice out Gavin goes
off on a tangent displaying a symptom
characteristic to his attention deficit
hyper activity disorder diagnosis lack
of focus and then what happened and then
we're like okay let's get this done
before anyone Drives By or anything how
did you get him out of the trunk by
himself or with the blanket I I kind of
just went up and grabbed him by
underneath the shoulders and lifted them
so and then RJ kind of like picked up
his legs it was the blanket pillow and
all and then we just like Let It Roll
and it kind of wrapped itself up so when
it was rolling down the hill the tarp
wrapped itself up around him I I kind of
kind I kind of tried to wrap him up a
little bit like cover up his feet the
investigators keep a cool head while
Gavin describes throwing Aaron's body
off the embankment along with some trash
is there still any blood in the trunk I
don't know I think was still someone on
the outside cuz he was kind of leaking
everywhere okay and then where do you
guys go from there and we were like okay
which way to Walmart we and that's when
we went to Walmart where does rj stay he
he's he just stays outside and smokes
and where did you get those cigarettes
those were her dad's remember what kind
of cigarettes they were they were camel
99s
okay
ultimately you and Ellie go in you buy
some junk food did she buy a pregnancy
test yeah then you guys come out of
Walmart and we will go on SSI like Alie
and I went upstairs cuz she had use
restroom and she also was going to and
she was going to check out the hair dye
so I gave her the hair dye she went to
the bathroom she came back out was like
this is the wrong stuff we need to go
return it we went back to Walmart and we
got the refund of 977 was the refund and
then we go back out picky about makeup
and hair Dy sneaking out of a bedroom
window to see a forbidden older
boyfriend and conspiracy to commit
patricide one of these things is not
like the other one of these things just
doesn't belong got you you need
something bathroom water something like
that okay get some water water please
yeah you want to soda or anything no um
you guys have to do yeah okay you want
to do yes please
okay I don't understand why you guys are
being so nice to me I
something we'll be right back we'll be
right
back Gavin has offered a drink and he
States how nice the police are being to
him showing that the read tactic they
have employed has worked well and
they're seen as allies to him
it proves difficult to determine whether
Gavin is experiencing true remorse over
what he's done or regret over the
repercussions or both whatever the case
Gavin's emotionality indicates that he
didn't go about this entirely in control
and intelligently up to this point we
can reasonably speculate that Gavin
displays aggressive tendencies violent
behavior and impulsivity
there's more to this story but we'll
cover that later Gavin had displayed
concerning Behavior throughout childhood
into adulthood so much so that he was
considered a possible threat to others
at South Medford High School people talk
about schools having like a list of kids
who were potential threats I'd say he
was like the poster child for that
person at our school it was it was like
an understood thing you know about Gavin
that that's kind of the person that he
was kind of a scary person not someone
you would think to mess with yeah it
just kind of G me like an off Vibe
sometimes you know everyone jokes around
like okay if we had a skull shooter it'
probably be him anything concerning with
Gavin yes we did a threat assessment a
threat to others assessment I can't
remember when he grabbed a student's and
was inappropriate on a few occasions we
also I believe did US risk to self
assessment on him at least once like
that he'd said he was going to kill
himself yes so split in his head man
something he cracked like I said it's
like she did help kill a dad but like I
swear to God she was crazy what I heard
you know she did some crazy I don't
think she would have killed her
dad all right how you
doing I'm barely awake you
are I'll tell you if I was at a police
department I would be wide
awake detective Smith is consistently
direct with Ellen she implies here that
Ellen should be more alert despite ell
being sleep deprived because of the
circumstances this seems rather
counterintuitive considering that Ellen
is already displaying high levels of
resistance which interrogators typically
counter with empathy and kindness we
talk to everybody that is involved and
then okay mhm okay I've been under the
weather lately oh goodness okay Ellen
makes poor attempts at eliciting
sympathy in whatever way she can
throughout the interrogation but the
investigator pays a little mind often
implying that Ellen is for lack of a
better word dramatic this is markedly
histrionic Behavior histrionic
essentially means melodramatic in the
mental health World histrionic behavior
is heavily and unsurprisingly present in
histrionic personality disorder it can
be a symptom of a variety of other
disorders as well but generally refers
to maladaptive attention seeking and
exaggerated
behavior and then we talk and try to
like hammer out and figure out what
who's saying what what's going on and
try to really get the real story from
everybody okay of course do you is it
okay if I keep talking to you kind of
about what we've learned mhm okay and
then if you feel like letting me know
stuff you can do that does that sound
fair yes okay so this morning when the
police were called to your
house it was because your sisters
actually saw you in Gavin and somebody
else in there a couple other people in
there leaving then they saw a lot of
blood in the house okay so then what
they did was call
Michelle you know Michelle who's no I
don't know Michelle I'm pretty sure
that's her name your dad's girlfriend
who was over at the house last night oh
Mickey Mickey thank you her name is
Mickey okay thanks for helping me out
they called Mickey and then ran to your
mom's house and so everybody's really
concerned and worried about
you um and your dad because we actually
don't know where your dad is right now
that's really
FR that's really that's really
disturbing to hear I agree consistent
with previous displays this behavior is
more than awkward it's uncomfortable
what some might call cringey to watch We
Can Tell She's attempting to muster up
and replicate something resembling shock
Panic or concern but she falls
considerably short of the mark
non-verbal experts might determine she
is being disingenuous from reading her
robotic arm movements Kyo facial
expression or in congruent verbal and
non-verbal communication even a word
choice comes off as suspicious imagine
being detained sitting across the table
from an investigator in an interrogation
room and learning that your father is
missing and there is blood everywhere in
your living room would your response be
a robotic that is very disturbing to
hear this is more so an explanation of
an emotion not an expression which is
why we easily sense that something is
off the investigator directly challenges
Ellen with step one of the read
interrogation technique discussed
earlier positive confrontation She lays
all the evidence law enforcement has
indicating Ellen's involvement up to
this point we also can tell from this
moment and from points earlier in the
interrogation that detective Smith is
attempting to set up a theme that
involves Ellen's sisters similar to
Gavin's moral justification for
committing the crime Ellen's might be
that she was trying to protect her two
younger sisters I absolutely agree and
your sisters are a little bit dist by
that as well Bas you know because they
they're scared that they saw you leaving
they're scared there's a blood in your
house and they're scared that nobody
knows where your dad
is so they're awfully little to have
those kinds of worries maybe he was
looking for me so where did all the
blood come from in your house I don't
know okay Mickey knows that you were
there Sierra was there Olivia was there
your dad was
there so it would be nice if we could
get some of this figured out like I said
detective Smith makes a skillful
confrontation about figuring out what's
going on without making a direct
contradiction to Ellen who begins to
gesture and move without purpose for
instance she momentarily glances at her
nails here these meaningless gestures
and movements grow to be progressively
more pronounced meaningless movement
otherwise known as fidgeting is a widely
known non-verbal indicator of
nervousness pay attention to the topic
of conversation during times when Ellen
fidgets the most so you know somebody
else is talking to Gavin somebody else
is talking to Mike oh got little OE
there is it
okay
so it would be nice if we could get on
the same page now okay excuse me what's
your name Stephanie Stephanie I'm barely
awake right now and I barely have any
recollection of what happened yesterday
or within the 24 hours do you need
coffee
I hate coffee okay I try to stay away
from caffeine and other chemicals and
you don't eat meat is there
anything we can get you like from a fast
food restaurant that would no thank you
okay and all honesty I don't feel like I
deserve that you don't deserve food why
finally Ellen expresses something
resembling guilt at least that is what
it seemed like before she
said I don't feel like I deserve it and
my basic human rights
oh especially when it comes to my father
okay help me understand
that they've shamed me for the way that
I eat for years
okay like in what way just shaming me
where you don't eat meat do they comment
about that my dad ridicules me for that
okay well that doesn't have anything to
do with with you being hungry and US
wanting to go out and grabb you
something if you want something no thank
you okay but thank you for the offer
well you bet yeah some may feel bad for
Ellen but keep in mind what she was
recently part of it could be that her
father ridiculing her over food was only
one piece to the puzzle that set her off
but fixating on this detail in this
moment going so far as to share it with
Detective Smith indicates egocentrism
which involves interpreting life as
though it exclusively re vves around the
self and maladaptive self-pity there
could be a persecution complex here if
Ellen holds a persecution complex she
possesses a persistent belief that
others have Mal intent toward her it's
hard to determine whether there's mental
illness involved at this point she could
be playing the sympathy card tell me
about Gavin being at the house this
morning he was walking with me
everywhere so if we went there then he
was there okay and what were you you
guys doing there probably I don't know
I'm as half to sleep again I am
absolutely not trying to sound rude but
some some things I just kind of have to
lay out okay I understand are you are
you an AP student yes you take AP
classes taking AP classes you got to
work really hard in those classes and I
know that okay so I know there were
times you were really super tired and
you were still studying so for you to
sit here and tell me how tired you are
and you can't remember I feel like maybe
that's just an excuse because you don't
want to talk about something that's
super hard to talk about detective Smith
is narrowing the ability for Ellen to be
evasive we are all trying to piece
together what happened because we're
very worried about your dad and I get
that it doesn't sound like to you he was
the best dad of course I'm going to be
worried about him he might have abused
me for most of my life but he's still my
father and Ellen uses every opportunity
to sneak in a comment about how her
father was abusive again we reared at
the idea that Ellen is not fully aware
or functional during this interrogation
only because she is so poorly lying and
concealing her negative feelings toward
her Father which would as Ellen might
logically reason add to motive she's
reportedly intellectually gifted it
raises a question as to whether Ellen is
attempting to pull off shock or whether
she's a 15-year-old struggling to
comprehend how to get out of a bad
situation so one of the things that has
also happened is South wford High School
has a school resource
officer and apparently you're still a
student there and you had like a band
thing this weekend and your dad came and
picked you up from the school at like 3
in the morning Ellen coughs nearly every
time she takes a drink and looks up to
detective Smith to see her reaction this
is histrionic dramatic and pity seeking
Behavior but it also occurs each time
the coners ation becomes more heated
note that detective Smith is quite
Direct in her confrontation in this
moment are you going to choke on your
water it worries
me my throat's burning right now okay
well you're welcome to drink the water
but if it's going to hurt maybe give it
a little break does that sound okay
anyway have you met officer Jackson he's
a school resource officer at South no
okay I haven't so officer Jackson says
you are a current student
there why would officer jackon say
that I don't know I me because you're a
current student there and you're kind of
pulling my leg a little bit
oh and that you're in band I do know
about a lot of underage people having
marijuana though okay well that's
probably a dime a dozen these days Ellen
makes an additional attempt to divert
attention away from her wrongdoing onto
someone else's wrongdoing this is
otherwise known as deflection and it's
Ellen's favorite type of defense
mechanism I've had temporary
Amnesia in the past there was a couple
of instances where I have passed out and
lost my vision and my memory okay and it
was when I had a throat Stone do you
have a throat Stone right now no that
was a while ago
okay so when you have this temporary
Amnesia who takes you to the
doctor I don't really tell talk to
anybody or Reach Out out you would
certainly tell your mom or your dad if
you have temporary
Amnesia I don't I feel like I can't
really go to them for
anything I feel like I'm a bother
where's your dad I don't know if you
needed to get a hold of your dad right
this second what would you do I call his
cell phone what's his career what does
he know how to do sometimes he does like
hard work or
something what was the last job he did
like I said a roofing job or something
oh the roofing job you said for a
neighbor yeah okay did he get paid for
that I believe so how much money did he
get for that I don't know Stephanie
okay okay you know I'm just trying to
figure out what
happened that's all I'm trying to piece
together everything right now M well so
far you've told me you're 18 and your
name is rain and I'm here to tell you
you're 15 and your name is
Ellie okay maybe you go by rain do you
go by rain Yes okay rain and Rose so
your friends would know you as that like
Russell goes by Mike mhm
okay note that while Ellen has allowed
detective Smith to state that her name
is Ellie and she's 15 Ellen has not
accepted blame or outright acknowledged
that she was lying Ellen's lies
surrounding her identity could indicate
that dissociation is present Ellen would
be in a state of dissociation in this
moment if she's protecting herself by
psychologically separating herself from
something in this case her identity
separating oneself from one's identity
is a form of dissociation termed
depersonalization for example she wants
to be someone else who did not conspire
to kill her father and potentially go
through traumatic
abuse Rose they call me Rose I'm so out
of it right now I haven't taken any
drugs
okay you can test me for anything you'd
like okay rumor was that Ellen began to
dabble with THC and nicotine once she
reached High School following the
occurrence of a specific taboo incident
literally her and some kid like did it
on the bus got like in trouble for it
after that she like started like smoking
and like doing bad things based on
accounts of others evidence is mounting
that Ellen's problem Behavior emerged
around 14 or 15 50% of all mental
illness Begin by the age of 14 I've told
you Sierra saw you at the house with
Gavin this morning Olivia saw you at the
house this morning with Gavin and a
couple other
people um Sparkle beak is somewhere I
don't know that you took Sparkle beak
this morning from your sister so I mean
that's just like what I'm coming up with
off the top of my head as things that I
have told you that were would should be
perking you up and waking you up and
like oh my goodness I'm sitting at the
police department I've just heard all of
these
facts I've talked to a lot of people
about difficult stuff and the things
you're doing right now are not
unusual for people to do when they don't
want to talk about something or it's
hard for them to talk about
something okay I don't I don't want you
to this is FL oh it's fleem okay I don't
want to take your water away because if
you want it you need it mhm but you also
keep worrying me about every time you
drink it it's all back in my throat now
okay you're good then
okay all right what was Gavin doing at
your house walking around
okay doing what though walking
around so what was Gavin doing in there
then if he was there then I and my dad
let him in I wouldn't have let him in
without talking to my my dad well you
were there too cuz you were packing
up packing up yeah we need to get past
the this tough stuff to talk about in
reference to tough stuff to talk about
this is a passive confrontation made in
an effort to appear sympathetic and
understanding saying I don't remember
saying I'm tired saying any of that is a
cop out so the truth is a cop out so
what's the truth
I don't remember I'm so out of it what
do you think Gavin and Mike are saying I
don't know you want to see
mck Hocus
Pocus okay I have no idea this is an
obvious ploy to play the prisoner's
dilemma law enforcement regularly
utilizes the prisoners Dilemma to coers
drug dealers into ratting each other out
technically it occurs when two parties
each Mak self- beneficial decisions
which result in a less than ideal
outcome for
both you think they're being
honest yeah know them to be honest
people I know that Gavin knows the
police force here who's Mike more Gavin
and my friends okay more Gavins but
detective Smith has made a sliver of
progress she's gotten a small foot in
the dorm the foot in the door technique
is used to counter resistance and
interrogation
Ellen has acknowledged that the two
other detained individuals are in fact
Gavin and Russell and that she does in
fact know who they are this may seem
like a small victory but by way of the
foot inth door technique detective Smith
has greatly increased the chances of
Ellen providing more important
information and that was actually the
older
boyfriend we were friends with benefits
but never really relationship okay and
did your H your dad approved of that
relationship I didn't really tell him
about it but he saw us holding hands and
he freaked out MH it's just Dawning on
me and I'm going to point this out to
you that you have a pretty good memory
of all of that stuff but you can't tell
me what happened of my past 10 hours ago
not even 10 hours ago my past has
ingrained in me okay because of how much
pain it's brought me
uhhuh you know what happened 7 hours ago
do I
yeah like I said it's been a long time
since I've seen a
parent act the way your mom was acting
this morning she was literally on the
ground
sobbing on her knees with her head
buried into the ground sobbing she's
worried about you she's worried about
Aon I'm worried about my dad too from
what you've said there's blood at the
house and he's gone yes
I feel like that probably doesn't come
as a complete shock to
you I'm very good at hiding my
emotions I have to be strong for my
little sisters well yeah I mean there's
a lot at this point you owe your little
sisters what if your dad can still be
helped then let's find him
MH detective Smith is gauging Ellen's
response will you had a band thing up in
Salem PCI what's that Pacific Coast
invitation what what instrument do you
play it's like the front percussion I
don't even know the name of the
instrument I play do you play symbols no
do you play a triangle
no detective Smith is warming Ellen up
encouraging her to talk about something
she knows Ellen enjoys music most of
those we spoke with who knew Ellen knew
her through band she was just kind of
you know an average band student I think
she played the clarinet and bass claret
she did band camp so she did marching
band I would say that's like where the
majority of her friends were kind of
located she was one of the kids who um
like hung out you know in the area
during lunch and stuff so she was you
know just a regular band
kid are you GNA take a little sleep I'm
really tired
okay all right Ellen puts her head down
as if to go to sleep passively ending
the conversation at this point a very
common tactic employed when a suspect is
not getting the information they want
from the investigators since she cannot
craft her story to fit the facts she
attempts to stop
talking excuse
me I get some nausea medication some
nausea medication you know there's a
garbage can right there okay I
know I'm going to see I know we have
like Tylenol
Adil Ellen then asked for a place to lay
down detective Smith leaves afterwards
Ellen continues picking at her skin and
her nose and appears to place her
fingers in her mouth consider the
meaning behind Ellen's nonpurposeful
gestures in these
moments although Ellen appears Guiltless
at times her physical ailments may be
legitimate sematic manifestations of her
guilt
conscience okay I found
blankets is that fine M she knocks on
the door an officer comes by and Ellen
asks for the
restroom I the rest uh I'll get a fem
for you one second okay okay all right
the officer then leaves she's avoiding
her surroundings any way she can sleep
leaving the room asking for nauseum meds
which will likely make her tired and
sleep this is is a common avoidance
Triad often used by
suspects hi do you need to use the
restant yes okay come on
on Ellen is getting bored this is a
common tactic we see where a suspect is
left alone in an interrogation room and
they become bored and anxious the goal
is to convince them that talking will
get them out of there sooner leading to
a sort of reprieve both physical and
psychological detective Smith returns
she brings paper and crayons while this
is seeming infantile for a 15-year-old
girl of allegedly sound mind it could be
her drawings will be examined for
indicators of evidence state of mind or
other information they may also serve to
relax her and ease her anxiety making
her somewhat more likely to talk though
ultimately still be bored with such
simplistic items when questioning
resumes hi I'm merid not very well well
I know what it is
and a pretty
tree okay detective Smith Reminds Ellen
ever writes this is common whenever
there's been a break and questioning so
I know Gavin was at the place at your
house this morning I know your dad saw
him I know Mike was that standing
outside of your house I know you guys
went down to Gavin's house on almond I
know that you moved the car around okay
I'm not I want you to know that we know
what's going on and the B bottom line
bottom bottom line in all of this is why
did all of this happen today she's
searching for
corroboration right it
all I'm sorry can I get some more water
yeah you can but you haven't been doing
this stuff with your throat since I've
left I mean play time's a little bit
over so why why did this happen today in
response to detective Smith's question
about why did this happen today why
today Ellen asks if she means her plans
to run away why did I try to run away
but detective Smith quickly closes down
this denial by stating you know that's
not what I'm talking about this is an
indirect confrontation purposefully left
vague to encourage the suspect to speak
of the crime in their own
words why was Gavin at your house why
was Mike standing outside your house or
Russell or whatever you call him why did
you guys go down there why did you guys
end up out on Highway 140 well I
actually know the answer to that we're
not playing anymore we we have the
facts detective Smith insists that they
have the facts they have stories and
statements but they don't have facts
this is common misdirection and at this
point the questioning will get more
direct and targeted detective Smith is
done playing games and Ellen knows it
can we can we start from the beginning
of your side now we have other sides
what I don't have is your side because
you've been messing with me all morning
can we have your side yes tell me your
side where should I start have you been
taking clothes out of your house yes
okay start there
well my situation with my father abusing
me had gotten worse so I was looking for
a way
out so I started to plan to run
away so I started transporting all of my
clothes to Gavin's house not as Ellen
talk she also keeps scribbling with the
crayons she's splitting her attention to
avoid the interrogation as much as
possible all of that blood that your
sisters walked in on is your dad's
blood what Russell attacked my father
Ellen States Russell attacked my father
and his bloody machete is over by the
northern Walmart this signifies a major
shift in her psychological stance
towards both the tech of Smith and the
interrogation so tell me everything you
saw that happened to your dad I didn't
see
anything I like I said I was in the back
room and when I heard the whole thing
going on I jumped out the window and I
ran
okay there's something different about
the way Ellen speaks here versus the way
she spoken previously the Cadence is off
she cuts herself short she's lied
consistently up to this point but this
moment seems significant perhaps the
outcome of the conversation is more
Salient to her at this point whatever
the case Her speech deviates
significantly from Baseline an
indication of heightened physiological
arousal okay I'm going to take notes so
I can keep track of this okay how do you
know Russell was with your father
because Gavin was with me with my stuff
he was with my stuff how do you know
Gavin was with your
stuff because I could see him through
the back window how do you even know
that a machete was involved prior to
going out to that North Walmart area
because he had it on him and then he
pulled it out and I saw the blood on it
and I realized what had happened and how
were you guys getting around like to the
Walmart or that kind of
thing Russell got the keys and we took
my dad's car this is another
inconsistency in terms of the last time
Ellen claimed to have been in the car
several days prior to the murder Ellen
continues to scribble with the crayons
so where did you meet up with whoever
was in your car was in the car the alley
okay Gavin took me back and it was in I
pulled it into the alley and what's the
very next thing that happened then Gavin
and I go in to get the rest of my stuff
and Gavin has the car started and
Russell has a tarp hanging out of the
back seat at the back trunk yeah and
then did you stop at Gavin's house first
yes we did okay we drop all of my stuff
off and then I was hungry so what about
your dog we dropped the dog off there
okay gotcha there now okay okay where's
my dog so you and Gavin go in to Walmart
mhm and then you said you go to the SSI
building yeah that's what Mike wanted to
do what did he want to do there I guess
he wanted to make Gavin his rep pay did
you go back to Walmart yes I went back
into Walmart to return something oh what
did you return turn hair Royal okay
where was Mike during that well since he
killed my dad and I have suspicions that
he was in the trunk maybe he went to do
something with the body detective Smith
pauses and I've been a little bit like
blunt with you during this process
that's what I appreciate blunt I don't
like people that beat around the bush
this is a dissonant contrast to her
previous behavior of playing an
extensive game of cat and mouse then I'm
going to be blunt with you the
information I have is you knew your dad
was in the trunk my guess is it probably
wasn't a great feeling to know that your
dad was in the
trunk am I right yeah what were you
saying to um Mike and Gavin about your
dad being in the trunk I was asking him
about it like what what's in the trunk
with the tarp and they're like a body
I'm like whose body why is my dad in
there and then Russell says yes
mhm I I believe believe that Russell is
the one that killed my father okay was
anybody wearing gloves
today Russell was okay were
you at one point yes I think cuz Russell
was the one that insisted that I put the
gloves on mhm and then what happened you
put the gloves on I put the gloves on we
go to Walmart so when we get the video
footage from you in Walmart we're going
to see you in latex gloves walking
around if I didn't put them in my pocket
then yes
okay did you help with your dad out on
140 cuz that would have been hard
too 140 yeah out out um we have found
your dad and we know he is
dead and we know that you and Gavin were
there when he was taken out of the trunk
that's just things we know okay they did
pull over somewhere that must have been
where it was yeah and then wrestle
through the body
over how did that make you feel whether
a suspect expresses remorse or is
perceived to express remorse it may
influence severity of sentencing a
defendant who confessed and appears
remorseful is more likely to avoid the
death penalty I felt really bad
uhhuh what did you say about
it I yelled I blew my top off mhm what
did you yell a lot of things that I
regret
tell me an example knowledge of the
crime now has been clearly established
and detective Smith is working towards
establishing elements of both the crime
of murder and additional crimes like
conspiracy I hate using swear words but
I was so mad that I used just a bunch of
swear
words to who
Mike more than not feeling Ellen
struggles to identify emotions that
would fit this moment stating that she
was using a bunch of swear words when
gav and Russell or as Ellen tells it
just Russell were throwing her father's
body off the side of the embankment one
of the things also out there by your dad
is the baseball bat a baseball bat is
that what he
used cuz my dad kept a baseball bat by
the front door for protection okay as a
reminder compare Ellen's Behavior
throughout the interrogation to the
behavior detective Smith established at
the beginning of the interrogation this
Behavior is similar to what Ellen was
expressing when detective Smith
collected Ellen's Baseline her par
language and micro expressions are
similar where is that baseball bat now
well you said it was found so he must
have saw it and used it along with the
machete because the machete did have
blood on it mhm and it was
dried how do you know it was blood it
was red okay like dark red dried blood I
know what dried blood looks like I'm a
woman okay
and tell me about what the baseball bat
looked like it was dark it was a black
metal baseball bat MH the information we
have is that you actually threw that
baseball bat up into the tree what mhm
but I was in the car well I'm a little
bit thinking maybe you weren't in the
car she is digging deeper into the
extent of Ellen's participation in the
crime the whole time she remains
sympathetic and calm with Ellen did you
put it up in the tree I kicked it I
don't know if I kicked it that's why my
ank here I have a line oh you wait let
me see you have a line on your foot from
kicking the baseball bat mhm okay I
don't know if you can tell was he making
any noise or anything no could do you
could you tell if he was alive or if he
was dead no he was wrapped up I saw his
head covered in towels and he was in a
blanket okay and how did H his head get
covered in towels I guess my or Gavin
must have wrapped him but Gavin seemed
just as shocked that that happened as I
did MH I think Mike took it too far and
did that okay and where was he when you
saw that they were pulling him out of
the trunk and when you say they you mean
Gavin and Mike yeah Mike did most of it
though okay but I mean he needed help
mhm yeah Ellen States they were dumping
the body but stated previously that
Russell did this on his own she
continues to struggled to keep track of
her lies like what do you know the names
of Roads yeah you do what roads were you
on that you know the names of I know
that we went on Hill
Crest you know you went on Hill Crest
that's all I can remember I wasn't I was
just kind of sitting there freaking out
staring at the road okay okay so however
way you're on Hill Crest and then you
get out to that the road where your dad
is taken out of the car MH okay
detective Smith employs a variety of
active listening skills active listening
encourages individuals to discuss
difficult topics detective Smith
additionally attempts to recreate the
route taken to dump the body this is
another part of the narrative that will
be important to the DA's case against
the suspects it will also help
corroborate times and locations so Mike
and Gavin were out they tell you to get
out they tell you to do something M what
throw things over Gavin handed me the
baseball bat somebody handed you a shirt
mhm a pink shirt was it pink because
that was its normal color yeah okay did
it had blood on it if they must have
thrown it out then I guess so it was all
bunched up they felt like it was a
problem so they wanted to get rid of it
mhm okay and then what do you see next I
see the mic particularly push it down
like it goes I saw it go over did you
see your dad's face no while this seems
an odd question it goes to knowledge of
the circumstances and will confirm
whether any or all suspects disposed of
the body or if they only disposed of
other items at that time okay but then
they drive away and then Mike gave Gavin
directions as to where to leave the car
I don't remember where somewhere hilly
Ellen fiddles with a wristband another
meaningless action and indication of
physiological arousal of some sort and
so then what happens well I got my
speaker back from a friend who was that
person Jeff did do you guys tell Jeff
anything about what had been happening
no law enforcement stopped by Jeff's
house and discussed exactly what had
happened I asked how they were doing
they said they were doing fine and they
were smiling gave them the speaker and I
said all right well I got to get back
inside Gavin gave me a hug and then they
left and then we got got detained so
tell me about your relationship with
your
dad well he used to be a good father but
he started getting abusive about 3 years
ago mhm and you had told me about a time
he called you me names has that happened
more than once it happens all the time
or did happen all the time mhm I don't
know what brings it on he just does it I
take all of the whatever happens M how
does he treat your sisters like gold he
would get
drunk and where wherever I was sleeping
he would come and he would lay naked
with me mhm and he
would okay so I would leave and try to
sleep somewhere else in the house
mhm when's the last time that happened
couple of days ago Saturday after I came
back from my band trip okay and then
Mickey came in and pulled him back into
the room when she came out would she
have seen him laying on the couch she
saw his head but that's I think that's
about it cuz she just kind of poked her
head around the corner and said Aon come
back into the room he's like oh okay
crazy lady has he
ever yes okay it got on my hand but then
I went and I I just started scrubbing
and scrubbing and scrubbing because I
felt so dirty when was that and so
ashamed of myself
like right after I turned 15 like in the
New Year okay I felt so ashamed myself
mhm so why would he do that why would he
do that to his
daughter mother shouldn't do that to my
little
girls you're the first person I really
told about this because I it's
hard it's hard I'm breaking down I just
suppressed those
memories I never told my mom about it
and she's going to be angry when she
finds out that I had
it well what does Gavin think that your
dad's doing he just think he knows that
he's been abusive towards me as far as
the name calling and the grabb physical
and the emotional abuse but not I would
you call this abuse I'm not sure well I
think different people have different
definitions so that would certainly be
up to you if you think that I'm not sure
what to call it at this point do you
want me to find tissues for you I'll be
fine this jacket is
waterproof okay okay I can I think we
we'll have somebody bring us in some
tissues okay CU I know this is hard to
talk
about I know why
me why did you do it to me I don't I
have have no idea what he said to my
sisters because Ellen has been
consistently dishonest many of us may
question whether her behavior is an
outlandish form of deflection and
diversion at this point as this line of
questioning progresses detective Smith
hears about possible motives but again
it's unclear that any of Ellen's claims
are true he had said this girl was being
abused
possibly by her dad the other thing that
he had said is that she had a boyfriend
that the dad did not approve of so
that's also why we're kind of like is
she really being abused you know or does
she just really just wants to date who
she wants to
date I just want to know why he did it
why he thought it was okay mhm cuz there
was a few times when he was sober
and I just don't know
it's okay you can be
upset dad and I'm really sorry you what
I'm really sorry it's okay I mean are
you sorry you're crying my dad would hit
me when I
cried she is clearly distraught here
recall Gavin's less blatant self-
hugging non-verbal in his interrogation
plan is to get her bags and get her the
hell out of there believe it this ly
insignificant posture is a prominent
tell that individuals are emotionally
distressed in some way a new non-verbal
indicator even more telling if
interpreted with Ellen's pacifying self
hug is that Ellen is Raising both
shoulders high up to either side of her
ears this is also known as the turtle
effect Turtles recede into their shells
to protect themselves against threat and
we can imagine that if Ellen had a shell
she would be tucking her head into it
right
now h so much
[Music]
tears well I'm just going to give you a
minute
okay I'll only be gone for a second I'll
be gone long enough for me to find you a
tissue
okay Ellen appears to be experiencing
genuine surges of emotion well after
detective Smith has exited the room she
alternates rapidly between highly
distraught to neutral Expressions recall
Jillian's statement about Ellen's
rapidly shifting moods which we
discussed more accurately resemble
rapidly shifting
[Music]
emotions we could infer from Ellen's
expressions in this moment that she's
struggling to regulate her emotions this
isn't to say that it's not reasonable
for Ellen to be distraught over the
alleged abuse but rather that her
specific way of responding hints at
potential abnormal emotion regulation
and possible
Psychopathology she's just kind of
filling Us in and she's going to come
back in and chat with you okay okay all
right be really important that you're
truthful about everything at this point
and we're going to help get through this
okay all right so she'll be back in in
just a minute okay thank all
right the officer encourages Ellen to be
truthful about everything common thing
to say to play as if the truth is
liberating and will help the suspect it
rarely helps them
though you are an artist if sounds like
there was some there's been some talk
about your dad and the way he treats you
and like what to do about that and how
to fix
that do you know anything about those
conversations this is the Overture to
establishing premeditation discussing
conversations also sets up the stage for
charges of conspiracy to commit
murder there's not any that I was
involved in that I know about it sounds
like at least something had been planned
I think Mike might have planned
something I don't know yeah cuz I heard
a knock on the door and Mike was the
only one in the yard at that point and
then I heard the door
open and I guess I don't know maybe
might he did maybe he tackled my dad
since all of the blood was on the couch
the majority of it at least from what I
saw I don't know I feel
like you're putting a lot on
mik Ellen spins a large portion of her
interrogation blaming Russell and
Russell spins a large portion of his
interrogation demanding her release it's
a tragic
contrast
three all
charges are to be dropped and every
recording due to that is to be
destroyed Russell seems completely
detached from reality relishing in his
perceived position of Power by the
demands he makes I know cops are really
good at that oh I misplaced that
file I know you're sick twisted games
boy h 2
hours because I know Gavin has been put
in a different holding cell in a
different building release him bring him
here without handcuffs you guys can hold
on to the goods I really don't give a so
we can do this the nice way and we
negotiate or we can do it the hard way
and I can release my
bipolar I didn't even know how to beat
the legal system with its own laws too
never trick me buddy what are you
diagnosed with autism bipolar definitely
don't get me mad 90% of the time I'm
cool okay unless you give me reason to
hit you then I hit you which actually
you don't really want
that he seems to grow increasingly
frustrated when none of these tactics
gain traction so he next tries setting a
time limit to which they must comply and
arrogantly turns off the recording
gesturing to it as if it's some sort of
standoff that the police are actually
contemplating okay
she think I'm stupid there was a right
there clock's
ticking
Gavin
Ellie
there or I say no
more
Punk these are non-verbal signs of
aggression and dominance
oh oh
McDonald had a farm e
e and on that farm he had some bacon
Russell begins to more directly mock law
enforcement showing clear signs of lack
of respect for authority he's joking but
there are high negative undertones to
what he
relats with a Grease Grease there and a
Grease Grease there everywhere Grease
Grease all over the
road all the way home five little
piggies eating at the trough wait no
wrong one three little monkeys jumping
on the bed um wait no hey you guys want
to hear another cop joke Three Little
Pigs fell in the mud
that's a dirty joke you want to hear a
clean joke you didn't scrub hard
enough his behavior grows progressively
confrontational and his demeanor is far
less light-hearted oh boy that's not
good I should really have a talk with my
bipolar side no you shouldn't yes I
should some may argue that Russell is
unknowingly working against the
potentially damaging effects of the
isolation aspect of the read
interrogation technique Russell takes
control of his situation regardless of
whether it's founded in reality likely
reducing his feelings of boredom thereby
contributing to reduced emotional or
psychological
distress please send Gavin and Ellie
frier into this room please thank you
asking nicely he might be under a
delusion but Russell's behavior is still
notably histrionic similar to what we
see throughout Ellen's interrogation he
puts on a variety of melodramatic
displays
scissors and pocket knives are nowhere
on
me but my teeth are very sharp as well I
just found the wire that goes into the
wall and I'd really hate to get hurt by
a cop or is it the other way around I
forget hm
the police continue to let him speak
giving him all the Rope he needs to hang
himself further who cares anyway I just
saw Gavin go bye here's the
thing you pass the door bring him
back
please thank
you individuals exposed to violence
often display violent tendencies that
develop as defense mechanisms here it's
almost as if Russell is putting up fists
preparing to fight with his past the one
which reportedly included a significant
amount of
violence so what one thing that we just
to kind of run you through it and then
I'll let Jim take over is you wanted to
have a cigarette we went outside you had
gave you a
cigarette I advised you give your
Miranda Rights you remember that yeah
said you understood your rights the
investigator wants it on record that he
allowed Russell to smoke a cigarette and
that he advised Russell of his Miranda
rights twice the investigator be to
quickly recap his previous testimony and
what they did on the crime scene visit
so he doesn't have an opportunity to
retract his prior statements of guilt
this room's recorded it's got a mic and
don't you turned it off earlier well I
turned it off and on several times you
really told us that last night is when
you and um Gavin walked over yes to uh
Ellie's house and then you met her at
Union Park uh yeah okay is what you told
us yeah is that is that still true no
okay we could easily interpret Russell's
Behavior as Psychopathic and that he
doesn't display signs of remorse even
occasionally laughing based on
information from sources and from what
Russell has stated about himself he more
likely does not comprehend the true
meaning and impact of what he's done so
why don't we start from the beginning
and um just just give us the I mean
you've been very cooperative and
truthful so you're very intelligent yeah
Russell is more likely to respond by
continuing to be truthful because he may
wish to be perceived as
intelligent that was part of his problem
is because he can hold an adult
conversation and you think wow this
kid's pretty smart but it's not because
he knew what he was talking about it's
because he memorized what he had read so
we headed over we waited across um the
street down the alley we were waiting
there till she texted saying that he's
asleep so I started wanting to head over
and right when I wanted to head over she
text so it's almost like she read my
mind so we headed over he went through
the gate cuz we were going to go through
talk about he again uh Gavin okay went
through her window I followed shortly
after kind nervous about it but it's
what I do for a living I got all the
bags loaded out and she said that she's
going to grab the keys and pull the car
around while
Gavin I say talks to the guy but that's
far from there is widespread belief that
individuals on the Spectrum cannot
distinguish between moral right and
wrongness contrarily individuals
diagnosed with autism often possess an
even greater conceptualization of right
and wrong in Russell's case he seems to
have an extreme idea of what is right in
this situation believing that what
happened to Aaron was fully justifiable
did you ever climb through the window no
okay no I only went through the front
door
afterwards after the beating okay just
as Gavin told investigators that he hit
Aaron instead of killed after I hit her
that Russell tells investigators that he
only entered the location after the
beating versus after the killing or the
murder this again is distancing language
essentially psychological avoidance so
early
at this point what you told us was her
dad came in with a gun and threatened
him that part was not true okay I just
wanted to make it look like he was a
good guy and he is a good guy trust me
who is Gavin so when you went in what
did you see uh
very scary face I think what you
originally told us that his body was
still twitching when you got there yeah
he was dead Devin Inc his pulse and
everything it was still moving due to
the gases and stuff and the chemical uh
mixture within the body okay I went
through the front
door went straight to the bathroom okay
cuz I was
like dead body what we're learning is
something that Ellie has been wanting to
happen for a while and that the three of
you guys have been having those
conversations um I was not in the
planning of killing him
what he says here contradicts his prior
testimony the evidence and Gavin's
testimony we've been talking about like
moving her out several weeks and then
the big finale was make it look like he
kidnapped her he calls the plan to make
it look like a kidnapping the grand
finale Once Again showing No Remorse
almost as if this is a movie or novel
plot and put him in a car Gavin would
drive over state line to California I
was going to do um you guys are going to
tie him in the front seat of a passenger
car with him alive and drive him across
California yeah that was my idea killing
was not my idea at all did you know
going over last night that Gavin was
going to kill him no or or assault him
well probably assault but I didn't
expect him to actually kill him just
like probably a few broken ribs or
something is that something you got he
talked about he talked about killing
Russell was aware that murder was a
possibility under the law he would have
already been guilty of felony murder
which is when in the commission of a
felony like aggravated assault I.E
assault with a weapon here or burglary
if one defendant kills the victim during
the commission of another felony even if
it wasn't planned all defendants can be
charged with the murder I tried to talk
him out of killing him but when they
talked about it what did they propose to
do take him over State Line cut the
brakes or whatever make him go into a
gas
station all kinds of things got talked
about yeah but I always pop hes in every
system did Ellie ever come out and say
he's going to take a bat and and do this
tonight no she just said that she Gavin
says that she handed him the bat so go
do it did you see that no I did not
what' she tell you when she came out uh
she said that she's going to go around
the uh block grabb the car give the
signal and Gavin would go take care of
his
business so you knew when she had the
car that Gavin's going to take well I
didn't I know that he was going to kill
him but just I thought take care of
business as in like hurt the guy okay
Russell contradicts himself by saying he
thought take care of business meant just
hurt the father after he just finished
telling the investigator all the ways he
shot down the other various methods
Gavin and Ellie suggested killing him so
you have the Samsung uh yes the red and
black the red and black
one and we did we find that on you when
we uh yes and is that pass coded yes
what's the passcode on that it's a
pattern can you draw the pattern for me
so if this is the top of the
[Applause]
phone should be easy okay
because my new name is Mike Smith oh I
can already see what it is do you recall
how they talked about that they were
going to kill him when they wanted to
kill him besides the the
big of all these pages that I wrote down
um the majority of this sounds fairly
accurate it's just the gun stuff wasn't
accurate No okay I just wanted to make
it look more helpful on his end
consistent with the interrogation up to
the Point Russell seems to be prouder
that he could help than worry that he
did they've told us several times
throughout our conversation that you
didn't caused the the death no I did not
do you think he was awake when he got
hit probably just falling asleep all I
heard was like I said the thuds and the
moaning in pain one of Ellen's neighbors
had also heard Aaron's moans likening
them to an animal dying that same
neighbor declined to interview you
stating hello Abby thank you for asking
so kindly but I don't think I'd like to
discuss it for your platform it was a
pretty traumatic experience for me
personally so I think I'll have to pass
have a great day any other stops after
you left aon's house before you got home
street he said he took his gray
sweatshirt and put it in a washer over
to friend's house after you guys left
before you go to
almond do you remember that no I was
probably still terrified that there was
a dead body in drunk right
behind Russell does not necessarily
deserve credit but take note that this
is the first time any one of the
individuals involved in this crime
expressed discomfort with the fact that
Aaron's body was in the trunk of the car
while they ran errands one of the things
that uh Ellie is telling another
detective is that it actively got talked
about as far as planned out different
things got talked about yeah we talked
about it but never really I was isn't
really going to do anything kind of like
I could say I'm going to punch a cop but
that doesn't mean I'm going to actually
do it Russell displays his disdain for
Authority when he makes an analogy
involving punching a cop which may be a
subtle way to threaten the investigator
it also shows his lack of intimidation
for their Authority Andor lack of social
or situational
comprehension well I was agreeing to a
degree okay but
not 100% agreed do you think Ellie knew
that it wasn't 100% % I'm not sure what
goes through women's heads if men knew
we'd be able to understand women and not
have arguments with their wives she
didn't say anything about him killing
her she just said take care of her
business did she say take him
out probably it was a lot of things went
on last night and I was I'm still
terrified that there was a dead body
again Russell is the only member of the
trio who expresses shock at the sight
Andor presence of a dead body but what
he says next is particularly unsettling
did you send anybody text messages so
you believe what we just did no do you
believe I'm riding in the car with the
dead
body no no I'm not I might be blonde but
I'm not
stupid I'm only part BL ever thinking
about trying to see if I mean if I could
be Mr popular because I have a dead body
behind me no no or or if Aon needed help
I mean were you pretty convinced he was
dead yeah
you told us that you were a high
functioning autistic yeah okay so do you
know the difference between right and
wrong uh sometimes would it be wrong to
kill someone the investigator brings up
Russell's autism and directly asks him
questions that a defendant would be
asked to see if that defendant is
mentally fit to stand trial doing this
helps de feat a possible Insanity
defense or mental incapacity defense he
may try to use later because of his
autism diagnosis consider that mental
illness and its role in influencing
criminality is highly complex a mental
health professional would spend several
hours over multiple sessions determining
this this is only a starting Place well
see here's another trick with that
um what's to say that it's wrong to kill
someone in self-defense okay but what so
killing is killing so what if this isn't
self-defense uh self-defense would be if
her dad came at him right and there's no
evidence versus him getting mad that her
father Aaron tried to sleep with his
daughter okay do you think do you think
it would be wrong to kill somebody to
kill somebody that's sleeping with their
daughter it's not lawful for fathers to
do that with their kids lawful
understanding differs from moral
understanding Russell is either aware of
what the investigator is attempting to
do or exhibiting signs of genuine
confusion surrounding morality would you
consider yourself an intelligent
person uh to some degree what are what
is your
diagnosis uh bipolar which I keep down
with cigarettes okay cigarettes do not
keep down bipolar disorder if anything
nicotine ingestion increases the
likelihood of the onset of depressive
and manic episodes um are you bip just
bipolar yeah any
schizophrenia no the investigator may
ask this because he also believes that
Russell exhibits delusions and
potentially hallucinations
hallucinations and delusions as stated
previously are symptoms of psychosis not
typically associated with bipolar
disorder and more typically associated
with psychotic disorders like
schizophrenia fewer people know that
bipolar disorder can occur with
psychotic features this is more likely
what Russell is experiencing you talked
about punching cop in the past you know
it's wrong to punch a cop in the past
yeah
okay plus I know if I it's wrong kill
somebody yes depending on the situation
so was it talked about prior to going
over there or while you were over there
that that that Gavin was going to
assault that the Gavin was going to
assault the dad he said that uh he
didn't like it and he was not happy with
the text either were you upset about
that uh being a protector of female
yes okay and if anyone tried to do that
to my daughter I'd probably grab a
shotgun too because no one harms my
family like that how how did the assault
how was that supposed to happen we were
supposed to try and find chlorop and
knock them out but we couldn't find any
chloroform because it's not online
[Music]
anymore he uh Gavin told me that he knew
some karate I said well is there any
pressure points that would uh not kill
him he said there were and that they
would try to but I guess they didn't
want to is the reason that you brought
the machete was kind of a backup yeah
just a backup if he was to try and come
at one of us but I wasn't going to go
like I'm going to kill you no it's more
like stay back or I will but it was
never needed so if uh Gavin would have
said come on into through the window and
Gavin's got a bat and Gavin says to you
I'm gonna take this bat and Bash it over
his head hypothetically what would you
have done I would
have tried to convince him only to break
Aaron's rib cage but not kill him okay
just knock him out probably like one hit
knock him out then you then Contin on
with trying to convince him to once he's
knocked out put him in the car and take
him California D Russell doesn't skip a
beat before answering that he would have
taken Aaron to California after knocking
him out he is oblivious that guilt would
be an appropriate emotional response
because that's the other part of the
plan right that was one of the plans yes
what's the other plan my plan was to um
TI him in the woods have a Stern talking
to him like you do not do that to your
family and hopefully that would scare
him and me and uh Gavin and and Ellie
would drive off and leave him there and
he can walk go to California or
somewhere else uh probably just back to
the house and wait till my grandma gave
me the RV and then we were going to take
my RV that was the ultimate plan Gavin
would later claimed that Russell's firm
talking to Aaron plan was in reality a
tie him to a tree and murder him plan
note Gavin's non-verbal indicators
throughout this portion of the
interrogation he appears the most
distressed in relation to the crime this
is logical both in that the
repercussions are the most severe and
what he did was the most severe whose
idea was it to cause harm to her out who
first brought it up she did Ellie
brought it up she was the one who first
wanted you'll have to speak up a little
bit I can't hear excuse me I'm
sorry um she was the one who who first
was like I want my dad dead RJ was
wanting to knock him out and then go
take him out somewhere and then kill him
RJ was
that that was what he was did you ever
talk about tying him up to a tree and
having a Stern talk with
him he didn't tell me about that no how
would your plan be to take him out and
kill him so what my plan would have been
was like if we had gotten like the clor
from whatever I would have gone in I
would have like knocked everybody out
with it or whatever knocked everybody
out who well her she has sisters or his
girlfriend whoever was in the house your
plan was to use chloro on all the kids
and the girlfriend and the and am yeah
even the investigator cannot hold back a
shocked and disgusted facial expression
investigators are human and they have
limits so is Ellie kind of responsible
for facilitating This Bat thing yes many
talk about getting a gun and just
shooting him that's what R.J was wanting
to do the entire time but I was like
you're going to have to walk past him to
get to the guns and he's probably going
to wake up before then uh do you know
the difference between right and wrong
yeah you do have you have you ever been
diagnosed with any kind of mental
disorders
ADHD according to family Gavin was also
diagnosed with autism he's autistic he's
always been
very a little everything we've mentioned
about Russell also holds the potential
to apply and some capacity to Gavin he
could struggle to realize the true
impact of what he's done although it
seems clear to him that the outcome is
not good at this point in the
interrogation the family member we
interviewed further mentioned that not
everything registers for him when who
did when did you get diagnosed with ad
ADHD I was like seven and it hasn't
changed I mean I've been off medication
for it
since I was
17 you were up you were using medication
till you were 17 his struggle with these
reported disorders could have largely
influenced the execution of this crime
an anonymous acquaintance who spoke with
us shared that he had noticed Gavin
changing roughly around the time Gavin
states he stopped taking his ADHD
medication oh he changed he can just
tell by looking at him he didn't have
the same confidence he used to have he
just looked like he didn't sleep well
his hair became greasy he just wasn't
himself bottom line getting off
medication Andor stopping therapy when
those interventions are needed has dire
consequences for those and others who
know those who struggle with mental
illness and then I was like I don't want
medication anymore did you need it I
didn't feel like I needed it no and I've
been slow I mean I I I messed up big
time and I know I you guys going over
there and getting her bags when did it
start passing through your mind that
you're going to take him
out I well let me ask you this I was
just so angry I didn't want to kill all
my wife I understand that note how he
bends his head down submissively hunches
his shoulders and raises his vocal pitch
Gavin seems or is attempting to seem
honest and simultaneously respectful of
law enforcement in the room but when she
hands you the
bath did you feel like oh this is going
to go down I'm going to go take I'm
going to go assault him I was thinking
like I I was thinking is this really
happening I'm about to go kill someone
and I stopped and I kind of sat there
Frozen I didn't know what to
do even though this was calculated Gavin
could have been genuinely afraid In This
Moment fear of what Aaron might do to
him should Aaron have woken up may have
pushed Gavin to do something that he
ultimately would not have followed
through with we mentioned the fight or
flight response previously and what
Gavin relays to investigators is that he
froze individuals may also freeze as
part of the fight ORF flight response in
Gavin's case freeze may have turned to
fight once he was closer in proximity to
Aaron
and sorry
go so what's your mom's name you made it
to the third quarter of your 12th grade
year yeah what happened I just wanted to
get done with school because a lot of
people were giving me all sorts of [ __ ]
about like assault and there were rumors
going around I mean I hadn't done
anything to anybody it was a lot of
pressure so I just wanted to get out of
there m I knew killing myself wasn't the
answer cuz that would just be pure
stupidity
so and I'm guessing I'm not going home I
would guess that that's probably correct
okay I I get paid tomorrow okay and
murder is an automatic life sentence
isn't it when people ask me questions
like that it's not just a simple easy
answer to say yes I mean I think there's
a lot of different variables to it has
Ellie gone
home um she's not she's still talking
with detectives okay am I allowed to
talk to her at all um probably not okay
Gavin appears to genuinely care for
Ellen interestingly in speaking to
sources we found that Gavin had cheated
on
Ellen I mean I know this might be TMI
but I actually lie cooked up with them
everything was seemingly normal we
flirted a lot back then and talked about
the possibility of a relationship I did
find out after hooking up with him that
he was dating that other girl so we
pretty much just stopped talking due to
that he was really nice at the time it
could likewise have something to do with
his ADHD diagnosis untreated ADHD can
increase the risk of promiscuity and
infidelity this is again largely due to
issues of impulse control excess energy
poor coping mechanisms and poor emotion
regulation have you used any drugs today
or drank at
all in my f no do you use any drugs I do
smoke we did you have a clear mind when
this happened had you been drinking or
using drugs when this happened okay many
of Gavin's old friends mentioned that he
always had weed he he always had a weed
yeah one of the last things he he
messaged me was uh like supposed to get
an ounce want to come over and smoke he
further elaborated that Gavin may not
have responded the best to the drug and
made some accurate and relevant points
at potential negative outcomes of using
it he was so high he couldn't walk we
found a we found a shopping cart on the
side of the road he hopped in it and
forgot all of his stuff on the side of
the road right so I picked it up for him
I was like carrying his board in his
backpack and he was just sitting in this
in this shop shopping cart
like you know I'm thinking it made him
think weird so like some people just
can't handle this you know I've heard
that some mental disorders can be
Amplified when you smoke weed I just
know I just like seriously myself over
with this from the beginning I I had a
bad feeling about all this and I was
like I knew I shouldn't I shouldn't have
gotten involved I should
but we' been dating for a long time
we've we know each other for a while
it's just just hard Gavin is regretful
but not for taking Aaron's life he
implies here that he was doing this all
because Ellen wanted him to although his
family reported that Ellen was the Prime
culprit in manipulating Gavin there are
others who disagree I can't help but
blame Gavin for a lot of it so you think
that he was The Mastermind if he had put
his foot down I guarantee Ellie would
have been like okay maybe we shouldn't
kill my dad oh Bo what do I have a bad
feeling about all
this wait Jim's going to explain some
things to you bags
evidence uh probably handcuffs are going
to be coming next for all three of us
because what we did well I didn't beat
the crap up you told me that you spent a
lot of time in the watching and and
doing uh detective board stuff so yeah
this is a a search warrant okay of
Gavin's property no this is for your
body I'm just going to explain that to
you cuz part of what we're going to
collect I have nothing on me except for
my clothes okay M part of what we're
going to collect his DNA samples
and here we see a more blatant display
of Russell's anti-authoritarian attitude
a search warrant can be ate just like my
homework by my dog which I never had so
I ate let me explain something to M
because a judge signs a search warrant
saying that we're we're going to collect
oh so a judge judge signed it
yeah what stupid judge said that so let
me read this to you okay it's long in
the Circuit Court of the state of Oregon
for the county of Jackson search warrant
you are hereby commanded to search a
certain commanded and Russell Pierce
Jones date of birth 711 95 who are Poli
not 711 it's
71
7195
okay okay you're going to have to tie me
down and a straight check to get my
evidence okay and that may happen okay
you've been very Qui watch I tend to
talk out my hand just try not to stick
your finger in my mouth I won't I will
bite it will not stick my finger in your
mouth I promise you that I was
protecting a kid once and um she had
four guys hold my arms and legs down and
so she thought I was safe enough to put
her hand close to my mouth let just say
she needed rabies shots after I bit her
don't buite me
please what last time we
sple uh 3 days ago wow individuals who
have bipolar disorder struggle to sleep
during periods of mania this is highly
suggestive that Russell is experiencing
a manic episode which tracks with the
fact that he is also experiencing
delusions have me stand right there with
your back against that wall so I can
take some pictures of you try not to get
my face I'll get your good side okay
promise come
on I'll get your good side St Back
Against The Wall face me back towards
back against the wall and face me okay
AR I have to hold the
sign no arms down to your side don't do
that please
yep can turn face that way for
me you know you can you don't have to
hold your mouth open like that I okay
sure I just feel like I'm like at school
with the photos my cat you uh probably
I always say face me and hold your hands
out in front of
you uh I always say six but I'm actually
5'9 probably okay can you hold them up
and out a little bit like Hitler or
zombie or something like that
still over for me bring him down a
little bit perfect right there mik all
right
face turn around for me just don't ask
me to take off my pants I have no
underwear on okay turn around face the
wall for me what' you do with your
underwear I tossed it I covered it with
the laot paper towels though so he he
did not have the the skills really to be
on his own and this was kind of just the
final final situation for him I mean we
don't know honestly that he'll even make
it out of prison I I don't know I mean
prison sounds like a pretty rough place
so so he doesn't get the severity of
what gav did he still wants to help her
I go she lied to you about all this
abuse and all that it was all life well
you know what I still would like to help
her if I could oh my goodness that's how
he is I kid you
not so what's the situation with
Ellie will she be going home or what's
her
case I don't know maybe they did plan
something I don't because I wasn't with
them all of this weekend yeah they had
plenty of an opportunity to do that
Ellen has transitioned to using they it
appears now that Ellen is moving her
Focus to protecting herself over Gavin
I'm going to figure out if there's any
new stuff and see if we could talk about
it is that fine okay I don't like being
alone you don't no I don't if I find
somebody to come hang out with you
that's not me is that okay okay I'm
gonna do that fear of being alone occurs
alongside feelings of abandonment in
Intimate Relationships individuals prone
to feelings of Abandonment May rely too
heavily on their Partners should their
Partners seek to end the relationship or
spend more time with others for example
these individuals may respond in Extreme
Ways threatening suicide or providing
their partners with ultimatums such as
stay with me or else another common
extreme attempt to avoid abandonment
present among women who suffer from this
fear is lying about being pregnant this
maladaptive attachment May develop in
those suffering from various mental
illness maladaptive attachment in
adulthood also often develops when
individuals possess an anxious
attachment style which is characterized
by a longing for closeness and as Ellen
mentions she has fear of being
alone can I hug you
no what's wrong kiddo I need a hug why
because I finally opened out about told
somebody about the abuse that I've going
through okay we're going to hold off
just a little bit okay I can s here with
you though how long of your parents been
having problems they've been divorced
since I started Middle School which was
four three or four years ago now
okay divorces that are not amicable
cause great distress among children and
may lead to negative externalizing
behavior otherwise referred to as acting
out and women and girls that may more
commonly lead to internalizing issues
such as increas inreased anxiety and
shame turbulent divorces may also lead
to issues of attachment like to draw
mhm I'm also a musician it's so hard to
talk about I don't think I'll ever be
able to play a guitar again CU my dad
was the one that taught me
how he used to be so nice I don't know
what
changed I'm sorry that I'm crying I
shouldn't be crying
this is what seems to be Ellen's first
display of genuine remorse and sadness
over the loss of her
father I feel like I should say
something but I don't want to draw away
from what's going on right now I know
miners that have marijana in their
possession and they regularly smoke oh
that's not good so I thought since I'm
here I'd make a report about it okay
it's interesting that Ellen calls out
minor for smoking when she was known to
have smoked herself I've never had any
drugs or alcohol that I know of unless
my dad did something to me or SP drink
because that's what he does to his
girlfriend when his girlfriend didn't do
what he wanted and I have suspicions
that he's done that to me in the past
talk to me about how how Gavin is what's
he like protective okay so how did when
you had that conversation with him on
Saturday how what was his reaction he
just tried to make me feel better he
told me it's not my fault that he's
doing these things
M and he said that he wanted to punch
him in the face Ellen claims Gavin had
violent intentions towards her father
but this didn't allegedly involve murder
or great bodily harm from this point
forward Ellen mostly draws with little
interaction between her and the second
investigator a few minutes later she
restarts the conversation with small
talk Ellen seems comfortable with the
silence but the second investigator is
giving Ellen a break for a few minutes
this type of mental reset can let new
thoughts surface then when questioning
restarts new information may be
shared how long have you been a
vegetarian since I was about five oh
okay is anyone else in your family
vegetarian no they all make fun of me
for the way I eat that's not very nice
it's very
hurtful cuz your family is to be the one
that loves and accepts you I've always
been the black sheep the therapist at
South Medford High School said that
Ellen only mentioned that she was
depressed that there were more rules in
her household than she would have liked
and that she was in a relationship with
Gavin Ellen seems to have a lot more to
say right now than the therapist shared
she did at the time they spoke and this
was within an approximate two-month time
frame it's worth noting that this is a
dramatic shift and we can only speculate
what it might mean so so she came in on
her own and I asked her how her summer
went and she said things had been going
really well you know since like August
she'd been feeling some more depression
coming on and so we talked about that as
a therapist I kind of usually jump into
problem solving she seemed to me to be a
little bit resistant and said she just
needed to vent and so I said of course
you know you need to vent when
therapists jump into solving problems it
can make clients feel as though they are
not being heard mental health
professionals are typically trained not
to do this until they are well into the
therapeutic relationship after Rapport
has been established so there's a
question as to why this therapist jumped
into problem solving as she stays here
and I really like to help people to
solve their problems you know that's
kind of how we ended our conversation
which was like you know I'll check in
with you in a few weeks and see how
things are going this applies to
interrogation techniques as well
suspects respond more positively when
they feel the investigator is listening
understanding and empathizing with them
that is why they learn how to
effectively employ active listening
skills as part of their
training
oh oh
this the second investigator immediately
starts reviewing her text messages this
is probably message passing to help her
direct further questioning while Ellen
eats her food are you doing
[Music]
okay I don't really know how I feel
right now okay I just kind of feel
empty my whole life is like bottomless
pit never really ful fil okay feelings
of emptiness this is an additional
symptom of mental illness common to
disorders we have mentioned previously
we can by no means unequivocally assert
that Ellen suffers from Mental Illness
but from what we've observed and from
accounts of old friends we can
reasonably question whether some level
of Psychopathology is present
alternatively it's possible Morris is
catching up to
her want
talk yeah Gavin is being 100% honest
right now and you are
not I told you everything I know we need
to talk about the conversation that you
and Gavin have had regarding your dad
that I had angered feelings towards them
mhm and classic read technique starts
here with maximization she told Ellen
she would no longer put up with her lies
earlier in the interrogation but she's
more blatantly authoritative and Stern
with Ellen here attempts at building
were po have failed so it seems as
though the investigative team has
decided that detective Smith should take
a different approach and
what they came over this morning about
2:30 Gavin was in your room and your dad
woke up is that right or wrong did you
tell me that MH you told me your dad
woke up okay well I missed that part
even when backed into a corner without a
way out Ellen clings to her lies I told
you that my dad woke up detective Smith
is attempting to break through Ellen's
resistance she needs Ellen to admit to
lying so you have told me this whole
time Gavin never came in your house no I
said I never said that he didn't go in
my
house so Gavin was in the house and tell
me about the conversation that you and
Gavin had when your dad went back to
sleep were you saying things like like I
want him dead I don't want him around
anymore I don't want to be around my dad
anymore mhm I want him out of my life
okay well when you tell Gavin I want him
dead those are pretty specific words I
said he's dead to
me although it takes a second for her to
recast her statement in more innocent
tones she demonstrates a high degree of
mental acuity and Agility with the
ongoing word game
you kind of have been playing games with
me you know darn good well what was
going to happen today what happened
where would you like me to start I want
you to start with the
truth sorry excuse
me what kind of conversations have you
and Gavin had about this what words were
you
using the nature of the conversation
will determine and help prove the
existence of a conspiracy for conspiracy
there must be an agreement among
participants and this will be crucial to
proving this
charge I was using emotional words such
as I hate the way I am being treated
very anger written words aside from you
telling Gavin you want your dad
dead he said you're actually the one
that got the keys out of the living room
is there a reason you're lying about so
much no
Ellen does not deny any of detective
Smith's accusations this is the
beginning of the truth where did the
keys come from the living room who got
the keys I did mhm why did you get the
keys to pull the car around why are you
lying to me why are you putting all this
on
Mike because it was his original plan to
take out my father Gavin is not saying
that in fact he used I believe those
exact same words
taken
out M from you I my original plan was to
run away and then Mike got involved
about the possibility of doing that of
doing what taking out my dad and what
does that mean to you killing him then
what and then we started talking more
about it what were you texting Mike
essentially what you just said you know
I want to hear from you it's
self-incrimination time and this is why
the Moran to right State anything you
say can and will be used against
you
about to have him get drunk and then he
would come in and take him out and at
what point did Gavin get involved I kind
of forced Gavin into this mhm we all
agree that Ellie was 100% 100% at F
maybe Ellie had him wrapped around his
finger and kind of manipulated him in a
way to do it any man I think is capable
of extreme violence if it's for the sake
of someone they love tell me how you
forced Gavin into this I pressured him
he said can you help us out he said I
don't know I really don't want to get
involved with that but I kept Mike
started being more adamant about it too
I want to hear your part cuz I feel like
you're really minimizing your part in
this s he was originally going to help
us run away but only Gavin was talking
to him about it and then I texted him
about it and he brought up this whole
thing about taking out my dad and you
thought that was a good idea mhm okay I
kind of denied it at first but he kept
saying let's do it so I agreed and we
started planning no what
happened and
then we did
it so did you check to see if your dad's
asleep mhm and was he yes he was what's
the very next thing that happens then
Gavin comes in and what do you say to
Gavin I said I'm ready when you are okay
what did you mean by that when you do
this We're In It Together what did you
mean when you said when you do this kill
my dad okay so what conversations were
you guys having leading up until that
point about how you we were in love we
would get married teenage planning a
wedding fantasizing about it what kind
of life you guys are going to have mhm
okay what conversation do you and Gavin
have about looking for the bat well I
was angry because I had seen it there
earlier
today mhm so I said I know it's there
and if it's there I'm going to be really
upset and so then you go look for the
bat and you find it by the door and
what's your dad doing at that point he's
asleep can you actually see him mhm how
did you feel about that I I thought I
need to get the bat and I need to get
out okay so then what's the very next
thing that happens then he tries but he
hit something in the hallway so he ran
back in the room and that's when I
pretended to be in the
bathroom okay so then do you guys kind
of regroup and have a conversation about
what to do next yeah we were going to
wait for him to fall asleep and I would
be out getting the car while he did it
and he would unlock the front door and
have RJ help him drag the body out into
the trunk did you help at all no I did
help try to clean up a little bit in the
inside though how did you what did you
do I got a towel and I kind of soaked up
to the big puddle of blood by the door
mhm and tell me what is the first thing
somebody says when you get in the
car can't believe we actually did that
who said that Mike okay and I said the
same
thing how' you guys
feel we were all kind of on an
adrenaline rush mhm Ellen's word choice
of adrenaline rush usually used when
describing positive experiences as
opposed to something more like shocked
or horrified is telling you had
Adrenaline Rush yeah and how were you
showing that I was actually pretty calm
but I was I felt
pretty like kind of explosive inside mhm
Ellen has been guarded throughout the
interrogation we might expect that she
would in the very least attempt to feain
sadness or distress the way she
describes how she feels here explosive
inside comes off as though this was a
thrilling experience for
her and again I mean it's kind of not
the biggest deal in the world but Gavin
is saying that you really threw that bat
like you threw that bat hard okay thank
you for being honest what did you kick
with your leg I didn't kick anything
with my leg okay you were it's just
weird Tan Lines you okay thank you for
being honest with me detective Smith
continues thanking Ellen for being
honest this is reinforcing the bond
between them in order to keep the truth
coming why did did you um talk to your
sisters
about about how I said I'd be leaving
and I would come back to see them okay I
mean how does that make you feel having
that conversation with your two little
sisters it hurts to leave them that I
felt like I was going to a better place
did they hear
anything probably what did you guys
think was going to
happen we thought that if we lay low and
we just kept ourselves locked in the
house we wouldn't be found out since
nobody knew where he
lived since no one knew where Gavin
lived G lived hi hi I'm here to relieve
you
perfect this is detective rounds she'll
take care of you for just a little bit
okay okay okay you sure you okay you
have enough to eat mhm
okay what'd you have some fries but then
I got nauseous I will only eat about 20
types of food okay so 20 things that's
not a ton name some of them french fries
yeah french fries pop Ramen
quesadillas
pancakes
waffles hi hi you're out okay and Texas
Smith will be right back
in
so let's
see are you what grade are you in school
sophomore sophomore detective Smith
begins to ask the same questions that
she did at the beginning of the
interrogation Ellen answers truthfully
this time oh goodness oh there's a
little tiny like microscopic sponger
here and it's been bugging me oh okay I
can't get it out what do you think that
came from dirt somewhere
yeah so if and when this goes to court
will it be tried as an adult or a minor
you know that is actually not a decision
I make I would like to be tried as an
adult you would tell me about why you'd
like to be tried as an adult because
this is what I've done and I need to
step up and take responsibility for what
I've done okay it's unclear where this
self-deprecation comes from if it's
genuine or concocted for purposes of
seeming
remorseful are you and Gavin like
boyfriend girlfriend now mhm okay are
you do you guys like have like a
relationship too no he's a he's a legal
adult and I'm a minor he would get into
trouble okay even aware of the
consequence and aware that Gavin has
told everything to investigators Ellen
attempts to protect him are you having
with anybody no okay but like I said I
don't really know what my dad's done to
me well you would know that one of the
things I heard was that when you guys
went to Walmart you actually bought a
pregnancy
test I had concerns but I have concerns
by Gavin's baby H Gavin thinks it's his
baby when do that
happen will I get to see Gavin again if
if I if I do have this kid then I want
him to be
involved I feel like they should have
the right to that mhm I feel like I
probably don't have the answer to that
right now that's okay doesn't hurt to
try
yeah what do your sisters like to
do play with dolls
yeah are their mom and dad the same as
yours yeah but I have some suspicions
that the youngest child isn't really my
dad's you know the whole thing about
blood types and how they work how for an
O to be born both parents have to be O's
because they're recessive okay my dad is
a
b so what's that mean it's not your dad
that's what I
thought what's going to happen to all
the food that we
bought this is an odd question while
Ellen seems to understand the gravity of
her situation it's as if she's trying to
distract herself from thinking about her
predicament how do you feel about what
happened to your dad
today I feel
bad do you like perform for choir and go
places yeah I got a solo last year the
scariest experience of my life I bet it
was no came to my
concert nobody comes to my concerts from
my family yeah did your dad work no he
just chooses not to come because he
doesn't really care
mhm well I wonder what would have been
different if you would have told
somebody me
too anything water okay
Ellen is taken from the interrogation
room in handcuffs we might be left with
questions as to whether she suffered
from something that could have
influenced the behavior that led to her
father's murder or whether the abuse she
described truly occurred Ellen stood up
in front of a courtroom at her
sentencing hearing and claimed that she
copes with post-traumatic stress
disorder resulting from the abuse she
experienced suffering from horrendous
flashbacks she had no words of remorse
for conspiring to murder Aaron rather
she shared that she had accepted Jesus
Christ as her savior in addition to
thanking her legal team and youth
ministry she looked across the courtroom
at her mother and grandmother and
thanked them for their support through
tears before reading the quote even when
the world throws its worst and turns its
back there is still always hope in 2019
Ellen frier was found guilty of
conspiracy to commit murder and
conspiracy to commit a class a felony
and sent s to 25 years in prison
spending 10 of those years in a juvenile
correctional facility Russell was
convicted of conspiracy to commit murder
in attempt to commit a class a felony he
was sentenced to 7 and a half years in
prison Gavin was convicted of murder
conspiracy to commit murder and
tampering with physical evidence and
sentenced to life in prison with the
possibility of parole after 25 years