[Music]
excuse me
you know if I'd been driving that would
have been pretty dangerous every time
you sneeze your eyes closed for about
one second which means if you sneeze
while driving at say 70 miles per hour
times five to eight zero divided by
sixty divided by sixty you will travel
about a hundred and three feet with your
eyes closed but don't worry this is a
self-driving car it uses sensors and
software to drive itself to keep me and
other people safe
I hope impressive but let me ask you a
question what if an autonomous vehicles
had to make a choice between hitting two
people right in front of it or swerving
to avoid them and hit one person on a
sidewalk what should it be programmed to
do what would you do now polls and
surveys have been put together asking
people what they think they would do but
no researchers have ever put people in
that actual traumatic experience would
we learn more about human nature if we
did that would it even be ethical to put
people in that sort of position I'm
about to find out
[Music]
in 1967 British philosopher Philippa
foot created a precursor to our self
driving car conundrum
the famous scenario she came up with is
known as the trolley problem imagine
there's a runaway train hurtling down a
train track directly ahead of the Train
there are five people on the track now
imagine that you are too far away to
help those five people but right next to
you there's a lever that can divert the
Train onto another track if you divert
the Train the five people will be saved
but here's the catch there's another
person on the second track now you're
faced with a dilemma
you can either do nothing and the Train
will kill five people or you can pull
the lever and save their lives but be
directly responsible for one person's
death what would you do when surveyed
most people say that they'd pull the
lever and sacrifice one person to save
five it's for the greater good but how
we say we'd act may not match how we'd
actually act if the scenario really
happened with real emotions and real
lives at stake any difference between
the two would reveal who we are compared
to who we want to be but a comparison
could only be made by doing what has
never been done before making the
trolley problem real
[Music]
suppose we conducted an experiment in a
realistic railroad switching station
with test subjects watching trains on
monitors the trains and the people on
the tracks would be staged and
pre-recorded but the subjects would
think it was all real they would believe
that they could control a lever that
switches the tracks and they'd have the
option to divert the Train or not they'd
be totally convinced that they have to
choose between five lives or one the
wait there's a greater good dilemma
about doing an experiment on the greater
good by forcing people to truly believe
they might kill someone are we risking
serious psychological damage to them yes
it might be beneficial to all of us to
see what happens but would those
benefits be worth potential trauma to a
few to actually conduct a real-life
trolley problem I needed to make sure it
would be ethical so I sat down with
behavioral neuroscientist professor Erin
blasdell what do you know about the
trolley problem and what previous
studies have found most people say they
would pull the switch surance one life
versus five that the math works out but
what I want to know is that if we
actually put them in front of a switch
watching a train barreling towards
people would they actually pull it in
that moment I bet a lot of them would
freeze in that moment when you're afraid
I think that shuts down a lot of action
I'd like to find out what potential
harms could come to someone in that
position most people would probably be
fine but there is a small potential for
harm in the sense of somebody being
guilt-ridden over their decision
obsessive thoughts about I'm the person
who would push that button and cause the
train to go and kill somebody or they
might think I'm the person who would
freeze and I wouldn't be able to help
those five people now it could be
traumatic
have we ever tested the trolley problem
on human subjects for real to my
knowledge we have not would you want to
see the trolley problem
enacted in real life you know I would
that would be varying for
about how people really react if I were
to tell you we're going to run this okay
would you feel comfortable with that
responsibility on your shoulders no I
couldn't do it for me they'd be involved
in that it would have to be on the
shoulders of many people including an
ethics board I couldn't just go through
with that dr. Blais Dells reliance on an
ethics board made sense most
universities have ethics review boards
to answer one crucial question when is
it okay to risk psychological harm in
the name of science it is may 1962 an
experiment is being conducted at Yale
University ethics review boards were
developed as a result of some
controversial psychological experiments
in the middle of the last century one
theory is that people learn things
correctly whenever they get punished for
making a mistake
incorrect you'll not get a shock of 105
volts dr. Stanley Milgram tested how far
subjects would go in obeying Authority
even if they believed they were
physically hurting someone no one was
being electrocuted and the screams of
the shocked victim were fake but the
trauma that the participants suffered
was very real this sparked controversy
within the scientific community many
questioned Milgram's methodology but
unlike a research school mind field
doesn't answer to a University's ethics
committee that said I wanted to get the
thoughts of an institutional review
board so I tracked one down and proposed
my idea for doing the trolley problem in
real life do you think I could reach a
point where you would feel comfortable
approving this study hate to be the
bearer of bad tidings Michael probably
not I'm not ready to say no quite yet I
would love to see your study pass and I
actually think the ways to make it
passes we should probably be screening
out for people who might have a puss
rheumatic stress disorder you know any
kind of like clinical problem that could
make them more vulnerable to a type of
event like this with the addition of
something like a trauma counselor on
sigh I actually think that under those
circumstances it might pass can you
present a compelling case as to the
social good of this study yes if you
could find a way to say look this is why
it's important it's not just basic
theoretical research this has direct
implications for mass transit direct
implications for self-driving cars it's
a risk benefit but the benefits are
potentially tremendous right and so my
hope is that the good this experiment
does is in revealing the difference
between instinct and philosophical
reflection and I think that there could
be an enormous benefit in learning the
difference so we can train people to act
in the way that they wish they would
yeah that's interesting
that's a compelling argument yeah I came
into this meeting expecting a lot of
resistance but instead I'm actually
leaving invigorated like excited to take
their concerns implement them into the
study and and make it not just more
acceptable which I thought was the
purpose here but to actually make it
more beneficial more fascinating and
penetrate deeper and have more
applications in society
so I decided we were ready to move
forward to turn one of the most
notorious hypothetical ethical dilemmas
into a reality
we traveled to an abandoned railroad
line and hired a freight train our
subjects needed to be shown how switch
points work so the minefield production
team shot a video of a train going down
two tracks then we dressed six actors
like railroad workers since we didn't
want them to be at actual risk of harm
we took steps to make sure they were
safe you're all gonna be workers on the
track you will not have the train moving
while you are on the tracks we filmed
our actors on the tracks wearing ear
protection and looking distracted to
explain why they couldn't hear a train
coming toward them then in editing we
employed visual effects to create the
illusion of the train approaching we
then combined the shots together during
the experiment we would play the video
for our subjects who would believe the
action was happening live and
transmitted from remote cameras
our next step was to find an expert who
would be willing to guide me through the
process of selecting our subjects in
order to minimize psychological harm so
what should I be worried about the worst
would probably be post-traumatic stress
disorder and that's when they're going
to be re-expanded Rama they'll keep
thinking about it over and over and so
to limit risk you'd want to screen out
people prone to a traumatic reaction and
then afterwards do the debrief
that's the key to limit harm from
happening how are they feeling at this
moment what's going on with them you can
start to ease them into the reality of
what is instead of what they thought it
was would you be willing to help us
conduct this experiment oh yes I mean I
think I would I think this is a really
fascinating and valuable experiment
because people can have very
uncomfortable lessons that they then
start to learn from if I can make sure
that we get people who may be
appropriate to do such thing I would be
honored
[Music]
I'm calling regarding a study we're
doing for high speed railway I wanted to
know if you might be interested in
participating next week to disguise the
true nature of our experiment we placed
an online ad recruiting people for a
fake focus group to offer feedback on
California's new high-speed rail hey I'm
just gonna ask you to fill out a couple
forms to make sure that there's a range
of personality types in our group and
for TSA security purposes these
psychological surveys used frequently by
employers look to uncover signs of
depression anxiety and other conditions
that might make someone unsuitable to
participate in this experiment back in
dr. kayson's office we reviewed the
potential subjects responses in this
particular person I was concerned about
this some high suicidal thinking high
acting out those kinds of factors might
not be a good an experiment where you
want to try to prevent some of the
trauma from happening right these people
though and there's a large group of them
they are more resilient so I would be
more comfortable with these people
because their ability to bounce back in
difficult situations might make them
less susceptible to a trauma finally
after consulting two psychologists and a
University Ethics Board it was time to
put our plan into action
[Applause]
this is where we're going to physically
create the trolley problem in real life
not with the trolley but with a train
our subjects will sign in at this booth
for our phony focus test which will
never actually take place it's gonna be
a hot day for them so we'll offer them
while they wait for the actual test to
begin the chance to sit inside this nice
air-conditioned remote switching station
inside they'll meet a kindly train
switch operator supposedly an employee
of the California railroad Authority the
California railroad Authority is real
real fake we invented this non-existent
government organization to convince our
subjects that everything here is real
including these monitors showing
supposedly live shots of actual trains
from different tracks all around the
California area
while the participant is waiting inside
this room they'll learn how the operator
switches the tracks using a lever to
remotely switch a train from one track
to another they'll see it happen
we're actually controlling the video on
these screens from a different hidden
control room at a given time the switch
operator will leave the subject alone in
the switching station and at that point
a crisis will occur
our train will be barreling down the
tracks and workers will have made their
way out to both tracks five on one one
worker on his phone on the other no one
is around for them to alert who has any
kind of control or authority switching
the train is up to the subject alone
they'll feel like what they do has
real-world consequences well five people
died over one
[Music]
our first participant is almost here so
it's time for me to get ready doctor
case on how are you feeling good my
hypothesis is that we're going to see
people immediately when they hear that
first warning leave the station and not
want to get back inside the other option
would be of course the freeze action
where they don't do anything because
they don't know what to do in that case
we want to know their thought process
it'll be interesting to see this has
never been done before all right well
here we go our first subject is elsa
everyone she meets is an actor and all
of our cameras are hidden so she has no
idea that she's being watched oh yeah
thank you so much thank you
our subjects were told that the
technology that are about to see is
proprietary this gave us an excuse to
collect their phones so they couldn't
call for help during the imminent crisis
thank you so much for coming out today
what we're doing here is California
railroad authorities they're developing
high-speed trains and so we want the
public to come in and give us some
feedback on how comfortable they are the
decor you know all that kind of stuff oh
shoot they're running a little behind
from the last one okay so it's just
gonna be like another 15 maybe 20
minutes
um you know what I've got an ID to get
now elsa believes she has to wait for 20
minutes our actress pretends to ask
permission for her to wait inside the
switching station so actually this isn't
part of it this is a remote train
switching station but
it's gonna be a little bit and it's nice
and cool and air-conditioned in there
okay I just talked to Eddie and he said
it would be totally great for you to
come in and just check it out okay see
what they do in there
Eddie this is Elsa oh good good come on
in let me see
so what brings you out this way um the
focus group focus group yes the
high-speed railroad the luxury railroad
okay so what we got here is a remote
switching station these are all live
feeds what's happening is there's a lot
of construction going on we're gonna
have to put all new ballast through here
new ribbon rail right here on these in
case you're wondering we hired an actor
who actually spent 20 years working on
railroads can you imagine if we had an
actor who didn't know a lot about trains
he offers something called face validity
in that you can look at him and you
think god this guy's real my job here is
to take care of all the switching right
here on these two tracks right now and
so there needs to be someone in here all
the time now the other thing about this
these things attention train approaching
this is uh it's just probably a work
unit that's coming uh-huh we're gonna
divert it to track two okay so a train's
coming now it's a chance to learn how to
switch rocks there you go
in fact why don't you be the one to do
that just go ahead and throw it yourself
pull the dumb you right now yeah
good it's going much faster than you
think all right it's gonna make the
transition to track number two look I'll
tell you what here now a switchman okay
well now that the trailing car is clear
of the switch points go ahead and switch
it back to track one okay well just you
wait
the good thing is we've got it back on
line one
and that means that the next train that
comes through will go through on track
one Elsa now understands exactly where
the trains will go switch one to the
left switch two to the
it was time to force her to make a very
difficult decision I gotta take this
yeah sure oh do me a favor
wait right here someone has to be here
at all times okay no problem I'm just
gonna go up take care of this okay look
at her eyes because she's concerned to
be a little worried like what we gave
Elsa a couple of minutes to acclimate to
her surroundings and then we started the
playback of our staged footage I here
come the workers attention object on
track if she just noticed them attention
object on track
attention object on track attention
object on track she's looking at her
purse to find no phone no object on
track attention object on track
I think the warning does a lot if you're
in that station you're supposed to do
something
attention object on track okay here
comes the train
train approaching there's the train
approaching warning attention object on
truck I don't think this oh there's a
train approaching oh my god okay yeah I
hope I look around with you but the
switch operator won't be coming back the
full weight of this crisis is all on
Elsa attention train approaching whoa
wait whoa object on track
I can't believe this attention object on
track attention train approaching
attention action on truck attention
train approaching attention object on
truck and of test everyone is and of
test everyone is safe
okay we didn't want the participants to
think that anyone actually got hurt so
we showed them this everyone is safe
card before the train would have
actually hit anyone else
I'm Michael hi and this is Greg this was
all an experiment okay can we come on in
and ask you a few questions just scared
I can go ahead and take a seat there
yeah so no one was in any danger this is
a psychological experiment that we're
conducting on how people behave when
decisions need to be made okay walk me
through how you felt I felt the pressure
I'm like oh my gosh these people are
gonna die like I had to make a very
quick and sound decision like
immediately like right now right this
second their lives were in my hands I
need to change to track to what was
motivating your decision to switch so I
can save more lives I didn't know if I
was making the right decision I mean a
life is a life right
so when confronted with two terrible
choices at least one person was capable
of taking deliberate action to sacrifice
one in order to save five but we wanted
to see if else's reaction was typical
would you be interested in my speed
transportation yeah sorry why don't you
have a look in there and see the trains
running so much when I first started out
I used have to stamp out in the Sun do
you know where the next trains coming
great attention
train approaching as with Elsa every
subject received a lesson in how to
switch the tracks why don't you go ahead
and switch so here yes go ahead
feels like a trick this me ain't no one
say someone has to be in here the whole
time my god okay look
copy that he's actually tapping into the
power of being in that position
attention object on truck here comes the
test attention object on truck attention
train approaching she's not moving
attention just watch his eyebrows oh
yeah eyes are going back and forth train
approaching oh she's worried yeah
train approaching I don't know what I
would do in this kind of scenario train
approaching this is sort of that frozen
pose that we see paralysis in the face
of danger is such a common reaction
attention object on truck attention
train approaching even with the Train
seconds away some are still looking for
others to take control
she's singing this is so soothing there
yeah object on track attention train not
moving oh my gosh Wow okay if she gonna
switch it train approaching attention
object on truck attention and of test
everyone is safe all right let's go not
one of these participants pulled the
lever time to find out why hello jr.
everything that just happened was an
experiment
this was an experiment oh my god okay
what were you feeling when you were
watching that terrified I just I was
feeling a little anxious nice oh my god
yeah your heart is beating fast tell me
what was going through your mind when
you heard that first warning that a
train was approaching I thought about
switching it but then actually acting on
it was a different thing I kind of
suspended my responsibility like I
didn't know what to do so I was just
like oh I better not you know touch it
because I don't know if I'll screw
something up I would assume that there
out of those five guys someone would not
look they were running out of the light
or the treatment already planning to
stop I think probably build those chains
with some type of scissors or something
like that the Train probably had sensors
the workers would have noticed I didn't
want to touch the equipment these are
all forms of attribution when an
individual assumes that others are
either responsible for taking action or
have already done so both tracks have
people on right and I just didn't know
what you do I not switch it I me either
way someone's gonna get really badly
hurt I think what that power it was
quite quite the test I'll say it is
quite the test at this point one subject
had switched the tracks and five others
had not but we weren't done yet
meet Cory here have a seat nice advice
thank you
this is cool this whole module will
interconnect with the entire nation if
we wanted it to you know but right now
we're looking at just track one on the
Left track two through there these are
many many miles away yeah but they're
all live feeds surveying the scene
Eagles point of view yeah sure what this
is
okay I'll be right back okay got it
these remaining in gaze
[Music]
here come the workers yeah so he
realizes there's a potential problem I
think he's gonna go out attention train
approaching that's a chain come me okay
yeah
okay he realizes there's no one there
it's urgent okay - cow Moos okay he's
rehearsing what to do yeah okay good
hello hi Cory there was just the almost
an accident seemingly Cory everything
that just happened was an experiment
okay no one was in danger for sure these
were just loops of video taken before
this is a psychology experiment how
people behave in various circumstances
okay so tell me how you were feeling
mainly a bunch of terror and
responsibility because I was at the helm
and just horrified about making a
decision between like five people can
read the wine it was very scary
yeah what was going through your mind as
the trains coming down the track it was
mainly to warn them they're just looking
about what's coming up right now you
don't even have to choose between people
right if now it was really tough if
they're like six families or one family
I was like up to me it felt like
it was interesting to me that you had
such presence of mind yeah look for help
and make a decision the one that
everyone if you asked them in a survey
says that they would like to be brave
enough to make yes
so that was impressive before it really
was thank you
you know I I think it would be good to
have you meet some of the people who
participated so you can see yeah let's
go do that just follow us on out meet
the actors Cory showed us just how
important the debrief was in this
situation meeting the actors which all
of our subjects did reinforce that this
was not a reality so Greg trolley
problem mm-hmm I went into this thinking
we're going to tease out some general
truths about human nature however what
we've really seen is that you learn a
lot about the individual right everyone
had some explanation for their behavior
yes each one was different
yes each person told themselves a story
about what was happening according to
the facts and their analysis of the
surroundings and what was going on at
the moment but it's also based on their
own background and experience totally
there were people who were just frozen
realizing something was wrong and they
weren't prepared Jr was a great example
of that he evaluated everything but at
some point just said I you know I don't
know what to do other people were ready
to say you know what this isn't on me
it's on the technology I'm sure it's
being taken care of right others whereas
someone like Cory someone like Elsa said
no I have to take control they still had
some of those same thoughts but I think
what happened is they realized that if
they did not do something more people
would be hurt neither of them really
wanted to do something they both felt
compelled to do something because they
had to save lives so was it worth doing
the trolley experiment I think it was
definitely worth it some of these
participants if not all of them learned
something about human behavior although
it was a difficult experience also
learned what inner strength she
and I think we saw that with Cory as
well every single one of our
participants felt like they just
contributed to something right and they
feel the value of what just happened
yeah it's not just us we've since
followed up with our subjects and all of
them are doing well I'm glad we
minimized risk by pre-screening
vulnerable individuals debriefing the
participants and providing on-site
counseling because doing so gave me
confidence that we could explore this
facet of human psychology ethically we
learned that there's a stark difference
between what people think they would do
and what they actually do when faced
with a difficult moral dilemma instead
of saving five lives most of our
participants did nothing but is it wrong
to freeze should people feel bad for
being unable to act well here's the
thing
freezing in the face of a threat is a
behavior that can be found all over the
animal kingdom but we are the only
animals that can study how we act
pontificate on how we ought to act and
program machines to do only that to make
progress in our study of the mind we
have to affect the mind and that's not
something that we should take lightly
understanding who we are by taking
ourselves to the limit comes with a risk
and as we've learned that risk must
always be balanced against the greater
good and as always thanks for watching
this season on mindfield you're gonna be
a lab rat in a maze nobody's ever done
this before it's quite pioneering work
really as far as I'm concerned you're
already a co-author in our scientific
paper ready ready I'm here on the Amazon
where I will drink an ancient
psychedelic drug ayahuasca don't worry
this is a self-driving car we'll connect
through bluetooth to this living robot
okay and then to the left oh I didn't
realize that you were a real person I'm
gonna tear you apart if you don't give
us some answers
I am going to be taking a lie detection
test you know Chinese water torture
isn't even Chinese well five people dies
or we'll watch this is a big first for
us we're actually getting to do this for
real
welcome to minefield
thanks for watching
[Music]