of your conservative values moved in one
way or another of the I mean I visited
all my personal valleys probably haven't
shifted very much but my political
values have shifted libertarian hmm I
mean so I used to be a proponent of
criminalization of marijuana I'm no
longer I've been in favor for you a
couple of things one was just a general
sense the government sucks at everything
mm-hmm and the more I see the government
try to crack down on things the more
prevalent it becomes I mean people were
dealing pot on my sixth grade seventh
grade playground in public school
obviously and then just a general
general perception not only the
government sucks at everything but that
you got to own your own actions and also
examining more of the evidence about the
impact of pot on people's lives and and
you know again there's you ruining your
own life through use of drugs and
there's drugs that legitimately ruin
other people's lives or there are drugs
that remove your ability to even reason
or think I think there are only two
reasons to criminalize drugs in any
fashion one is if there are drugs like
for example PCP that legitimately make
you violent and then you are going out
and committing acts of violence against
people then there's a case or if you're
talking about a where it legitimately
robs you of your capacity to reason if
it were a heroin if you were able to
actually crack down on it successfully
but even then I'm not sure that the
proper government solution is
criminalization because we've
criminalized it and it's still
incredibly prevalent so I agree with you
I agree with on that and I agree with
you in terms of drugs being extremely
detrimental and the other part is that
there's comparable drugs that are legal
and comparable drugs meaning not even
really comparable drugs that are far
more devastating like alcohol like you
could just go to any grocery store and
buy a jug of whiskey and kill yourself
with it yeah it's not difficult we have
books already that prevent externalities
if you drive high it's the same as
driving drunk so I'm not sure that you
need additional laws to do that and also
you know I'm not opposed to zoning laws
like I don't think a pot shop should
open up right next to my house right
there residential zoning that's fine
it's a mob of liquor stores though right
man I don't want a liquor store right
next to my house this is correct
yeah right so I become a libertarian in
some ways
that sort of stuff the same thing is
true by the way when it comes to the
issue of same-sex marriage so on a
personal moral level I'm opposed to
same-sex marriage I'm an Orthodox Jew
and I believe that a man and a woman
were made for each other when it comes
to government involvement I don't think
that's anybody's business I think a lot
of things I think adultery is bad too
I don't think the government ought to be
involved in adultery I I'm so strict I
don't think premarital sex is a good
thing right I've been very vocal about
this I was a virgin until I was married
my wife was a virgin until she was
married I think that's a good thing so I
think the government has anything to do
with any of those things no I don't I
don't think it's any of the government's
business it's consensual activity there
are no externalities so what exactly is
the government getting involved in and
when the government gets involved in
stuff then there are externalities right
once the government starts to cram down
its vision on people then you start to
get unintended externality so for
example with the let with the
legalization my view on marriage is that
the government should get completely out
of the business I don't think the
government should be involved in
straight marriage I don't think it
should be involved in gay marriage I
think the government should be out I
agree 100% and the reason that I say
that is because as a religious person
right who believes in traditional
marriage
I have two I have two marriage
certificates I have the one from the
state that I don't give two craps about
it's buried somewhere in my garage and
then I have my religious marriage
certificate which meant among other
things that I got to shut up my wife
right I mean like this is the one that
mattered to me and I think that's true
for most religious people the religious
ceremony matters a lot more than the
state saying a thing and the state isn't
incentivizing their people aren't
getting married because I'm like yeah I
need the tax break right so that's a
bunch of nonsense and once the
government decides what version of
marriage and wants to push that then
comes into conflict with other values so
for example once the state of California
decides that same-sex marriage is on
legal par with heterosexual marriage now
I'm worried about the externality of I
have a religious day-school or I have a
synagogue my synagogue is a religious
institution it doesn't approve of
same-sex marriage now is the government
going to come in and tell my synagogue
how it ought to act with regard to
same-sex marriage I don't think that's
the government's business so how about
this how about everybody gets to do
basically what they want associate with
whom they want and it's none of the
government's business this seems like a
pretty good happy medium I I'm so glad
you talked about the two things that I
wanted to talk to you about that I'm
sure we disagree one of them being
marijuana and the other one being gay
people marrying each other so let's
start with the marijuana one do you
think marijuana
ruins people's lives is that one of your
contentions um I think that it can and I
think in the same way you ever had any
experience with marijuana no I'm just
talking about the I'm just talking about
the statistical overuse of marijuana
among teenagers does have detrimental
brain effects that have long-term
after-effects it's pretty proven and
that's one of the things that I really
I'm glad you said that because I wanted
to cover that but you were in the middle
of a rap when we were joking around
about six and seventh graders selling
pot don't smoke pot when you're young
you really should it's not good for the
development of your brain same thing
with drinking you know I didn't smoke a
lot of pot when I was a kid I did it a
handful of times until I was thirty
years old but I did drink a bunch of
times when I was young and in high
school and it's terrible for brain
development especially before you're 25
and you're your frontal cortex hasn't
even fully formed your frontal lobe is
like this it's it's it's a developing
thing and there was an article recently
that I posted from BBC that were saying
that you should probably shouldn't be
considered an adult until you're 30
right there saying brain development
doesn't even stop until you're 26 or 28
this is why when people are saying let's
let's lower the voting age I'm like what
thought what the [ __ ] are you talking
about
when I was 16 I was a chimp I mean it
was a chimp in a high school now what
the the problem that I have with many
people's perceptions on marijuana is
that it's based on ignorance meaning not
no personal experience with you know and
listen I'll admit I've no personal
energy marijuana so I know you don't I'm
not to be probably should get high
that's what I'm trying to find man I've
seen the effects on on stock prices when
people get high in the studio they jump
up they jump down for a little bunch of
chickens jump off the vote then they
come right back up the marijuana thing
is in my opinion it's another one of
those things where people have this this
categorized box that they like to put
marijuana users in like this is the
category lazy stoner stupid delusional
it's too widespread for that I mean
there are people I know who are doctors
who yeah so well there's the jiu-jitsu
community is a big one there's a giant
percentage of the jiu-jitsu community it
does jiu-jitsu high they have
competitions or a party it's not mana
because it's not what people think it is
if you've never smoked marijuana this is
gonna be a very difficult thing to grasp
but marijuana enhances jiu-jitsu because
it eliminates the rest of the world when
you're rolling which rolling is like say
if you and Jamie we're gonna have a
sparring match that would be rolling
like you'd slap hands and then you go
and you try to choke him and he's trying
to get you in an armbar and you're going
after it when you do that on marijuana
it's like you don't think of anything
else other than those movements and it
becomes like this very intense
meditation in violence like it's not
violent in terms of most of time you
don't really even get hurt and he's like
you get to the point like one of the
beautiful things about jujitsu is you
can grab a hold someone and choke them
to the point where they're going to go
to sleep and you would kill them if you
kept going
and they tap around your friends again
and everybody's cool and you try to do
it to me and I try to do it to you and
you really can do it reasonably hard
without people getting hurt it happens
every day all throughout the world a lot
of these people are high and they're
doing this jiu-jitsu practice in this
almost like trends it's like it's a
sunjin state if you can function when
you're using marijuana I don't care will
you pans and perception things are off
so I mean I would assume there's a small
subset of the population for whom that's
not true right who are overusing
marijuana yes and and that's probably
the majority in fact okay so so then you
know but it's the same way with food I
agree so I don't think there's anything
we disagree about here because I'm not
talking about criminalizing marijuana
use I think that we should honestly
discuss the the evidence that for a
subset of the population there is some
evidence that marijuana is addicting but
it's a subset it's not and everybody
who's on marijuana the vast majority of
people on marijuana are not addicted to
marijuana I think in the same way the
alcohol of alcohol as well is there's
people that are going to be addicted to
almost anything and I think there's
there's absolutely people that are
addicted to sugar this for sure people
that are addicted to nicotine and
alcohol and all these things we let
people have the material addictiveness
of marijuana is not comparable to
opioids go for it
it's not even comparable to alcohol or
nicotine it's it seems to be very rare
when people become physically addicted
to it extremely rare
and what's what's common though is abuse
and it's common in everything that human
beings consume it's as common as we said
with food certainly common with alcohol
it's certainly common with pills and
this is why you know I really believe
that the way to solve some of these
problems is a social fabric problem like
an embarrassing problem it's a social
fabric problem it's a personal choice
problem yes that's why virtually every
solution I suggest is so funny I'm
constantly conservatives like me who are
a libertarian leaning are constantly
accused of being non compassionate no
it's just our compassionate solutions
don't involve the use of government you
know it's like we're going to encourage
people to make better decisions with
their lives and if you choose not to do
that
it's a free country well you know coming
from a religious background you have
this community that reinforces this kind
of behavior and thought and I think
that's one of the major really one of
the best benefits of religion yet is
that moral fabric and that community the
sense of community even silly ones like
Mormons you know they're the nicest
folks right they believe something that
is [ __ ] patently insane if you go and
read the Joseph Smith text from 1820 was
14 years old the [ __ ] that he wrote into
doctrinal insanity I wear funny hat all
day you know with that said I mean
Alexis de Tocqueville talks about this
you know early on in the American
Republic the idea is that what makes
America very different is the idea you
don't need a big government when you do
have a supportive social fabric what do
people feel like they're at least
oriented toward a common goal it's one
of the problems that I think we have in
the country right now I'm not sure
people are oriented toward even a common
sense of conversation mm-hmm I mean it's
you don't have to agree on on everything
in order to have a common sense of the
important values that that unify the
country or showing us I mean I always
you see I'm Harris is sort of my bete
noire here because he's obviously a
militant atheist I'm I'm in equally an
equally strong believer and yet when it
comes to the things that we would like
to see happen in the country not on
government policy level but on a let's
have a conversation level and discuss on
evidence level we're on the same page
there's certain core assumptions you
have to make in order for that to happen
in my argument about America and the
West is that those core assumptions are
built on judeo-christian foundations
Sam's core argument seems to be that
they're built on evolutionary biology we
do
for a little bit there hmm I don't want
to let this marijuana thing Cody
one of the things that I wanted to bring
up to you was this idea that if you're a
religious person don't you think that
there's certain things that maybe God
put here for us to consume to change
your perspective to allow you to reach
new levels of consciousness so you think
it's entirely possible that some of
these things that are here and I know
you have an experience in but they might
literally have been put there by God and
there's some evidence to say that a lot
of the text from the Bible that in
particular there was a I think it was a
University of Tel Aviv somewhere in in
Jerusalem or these scholars were they
were trying to decipher what it meant
when Moses encountered the burning bush
right and they believe that it may have
been the acacia tree which is very rich
and dimethyltryptamine which is a
psychedelic substance that actually that
the brain produces and it's very common
in plants and they think that this might
have been when he met God and God was a
burning bush that this might have been
some crude translation of them being
involved in some sort of a psychedelic
experience now it sounds outlandish
unless you've had that psychedelic
experience and when you have you very
well could think that you were in a
conversation with God this is on earth
and this is something that may very well
have been lost information or this may
very well have been rituals that people
participated in to bring them closer
together and to reinforce that sense of
community that you do get from a church
and you do get from a group of people
that share more beliefs and values and
there's a there's real good discussion
that a lot of these experiences that
became these religious doctrines came
from psychedelic experiences now as
someone who's never experienced that
before I know this is probably a very
strange thing to try to even wrap your
head around it's it is entirely alien
until you experience it but it might
very well be religious I mean I've heard
that from other people who have been
who've used those kind you see I'm
actually made this argument to me too
about you know he's a psychedelic and
any maybe he dodged again I apples well
it
okay so it's our command I will say I'm
not super fond of the argument that God
made something and therefore it's ours
to use or I mean like I keep kosher
right look what I've made pigs I don't
need them so so I am NOT a huge fan of
the argument that because something is
here or because in urge is natural
therefore we ought to imbibe or
therefore we ought to participate in a
particular activity you know one of the
things that I that I'm very big on I'm a
rationalist when it comes to religion as
much as you can be a rationalist with
read religion to the extent that I think
that it's up to us to use our reasonable
faculties to determine the proper use of
things mm-hmm so which is why you
shouldn't overuse drugs even if you're
going to use drugs first this is prior
to the problem of making things illegal
you make things illegal then you really
don't know what it is or how it affects
the body or what's the right dose or the
wrong dose and then people get involved
in these terrible situations where
they're taking things they're just
guessing I mean there's truth but it's
also true that on a social level I'm not
talking about legal because we totally
agree on the legal level on the social
level there's a couple of things that
are true of for example the Orthodox
Jewish community low rates of addiction
because people have that social fabric
they don't feel the necessity also yeah
as you say substance use in moderation
can actually be quite a good thing so
low rates of alcoholism in the Jewish
community and part of that is the fact
that you are given kiddush wine from the
time you're a kid right I mean you
actually our arty stigma car
yeah it's D stigmatized and the idea is
that in its proper context this could be
a good thing right so I'll admit I don't
know enough about the proper context of
marijuana to know when it would be a
quote-unquote good thing and so can a
good thing so and also I'm you know I
don't the truth is I don't enjoy
drinking right I'm not I'm not a drinker
I don't enjoy
I like reality I like living in reality
and I like experiencing it totally sober
so I've never really felt the urge to do
any of that stuff I hear the pitch I
hear the pitch but I've never really
felt the interior desire or need to
completely understand that I think that
what we're dealing with though is
perceptions that have been molded by
laws that were shaped by tyrants that's
what I think I mean again that's totally
possible and plausible
yeah and it's historically accurate
when it comes to Prohibition prohibition
with alcohol didn't work prohibition
with drugs is just making the cartels
bigger that's causing many problems
whether you like drugs or don't like
drugs government intervention ISM is
generally a giant fail
I think our perceptions of what is good
for you and is bad for you
is also based on laws that the
government created ignorant Lee the
sweeping psychedelic Act of 1970 which
made virtually everything psychedelic
that they could they missed a few things
being slipped through the cracks but all
of the tryptamines and most of them the
psilocybin LSD all that stuff was made
completely illegal by people really
didn't even know what it was and a lot
of that is why we base our ideas of
what's good or bad for you it's it's
based on what is legal and what people
have done with it on this area I would
not only complete experiencial ignorance
but a complete evidentiary ignorance so
I haven't examined the evidence I really
don't have strong opinions on any of
this I think it's one of the bridges
that we all could use between
conservative thought and liberal thought
particularly for people that are dying
it's one of the things that Johns
Hopkins found and so there's been other
studies done and there's been therapy
done on people that are dying of
terminal diseases and they give them
psilocybin and when they give them these
mushroom trips they have these beautiful
experiences where they completely accept
death and it's almost a universal
reaction to it they'd like the the
amount of people who still experience a
positive benefit months and months after
the experience while they're dying that
they they say this was an incredibly
moving and powerful moment in my life
that allowed me to accept the fact that
my time here is done mm-hmm I mean
listen if that's something that works
for people and that's what it's designed
to do then I don't know it's designed by
God literally mine that that's fine I
mean I think there's also the
generalized religious counter-argument
that there are no shortcuts to nor no
shortcuts to happiness so so what's it
let's pose it I don't think well this is
the question right I mean like let's say
that I could guarantee you that tomorrow
you're going to be a happier person all
you have to do is take this regimen of
of drugs that you're going to take
every day and it's gonna make you a
happier person a more well-rounded
person but it's gonna permanently change
your brain chemistry's that's something
that you think is good or is it
something you think is bad because from
a religious perspective there's an
argument to be made that these are this
is work you need to do on yourself
without outside aid if possible if
there's cases where you can't then you
can't but yeah you know interesting
thought experiment turns McKenna had a
line about that he said that there was a
joke about there was a monk and he met
Buddha because Buddha came to town and
he said Buddha he wanted to impress him
he said I practiced a city of levitation
and I have done this for 10 years and
now I can walk on water and the Buddha
says but the fairies only a nickel what
are you [ __ ] waste your time like you
can aid the progression rapidly with
psychedelic drugs and this is something
that MA you know do you know about maps
and their work with MDMA and soldiers
that have had PTSD not so much no it's
it's phenomenal by giving these soldiers
MDMA therapy meaning they they give them
MDMA which is essentially what people
think of as ecstasy the street they give
them pure MDMA and then they assist them
with they actually have a psychologist
sit with them a therapist and they go
over all these details of these
traumatic events and they come to peace
with everything and they've had profound
benefits for soldiers and for we some
combat journalists different people that
have been over there and have
experienced you know the horrors of war
and and just general PTSD maybe people
who have experienced violence attacks
that is shown to be one of the very best
things we've ever discovered for helping
people get passed on so here's to me and
I'm think about this on the fly because
this is stuff I don't think about very
much but it's it's there's a complex
moral equation to the extent that if
you're talking about somebody who has
PTSD somebody has a condition and the
only way to help that condition is to
use these drugs I've never had a problem
with any of that stuff right I mean I've
had my grandfather was was schizophrenic
and by may be bipolar maybe
schizophrenic the diagnosis is not
exactly clear they prescribed him
lithium made him a lot better would he
have been better off struggling with the
schizophrenia of course not
better that he should have the lithium
and then be able to live in his rational
mind yeah so when there's a problem
using drugs to get past it and and work
with it is a good thing you do run the
risk of the sort of brave new world
situation where you have a group of
people who have a certain level of air
SATs happiness that is not driven by a
point of view but more by just the these
chemicals in their their body the
chemicals affect your point of view
whether that is a hundred percent true
yeah but are you Dhruva Harare talks
about maybe this is a future right he
talks about the idea that maybe the
future is we just drug ourselves until
we're happy basically more that
happiness is the drugs because if you're
a scientific materialist that's what it
is happiness is just a bunch of
chemicals flowing throughout your body
so if you can bring them in without self
change but I do wonder whether that robs
people of a certain level of purpose
that the struggle is part of being human
I think we're changing what it is to be
human just by carrying around phones and
just I mean that's that's true but I
think that that's again one of the
things that I think makes being a human
worthwhile is the idea that you are
struggling like I think I think the
struggle is actually meaningful and I
think that's why religions tend to set
prophylactic rules sometimes for good
and sometimes for ill so for example I
I'm addicted to my phone I mean there's
no question right it sits in my hand all
the time and but from Friday night to
Saturday night it's off I can't look at
it I'm forbidden from looking at it and
this breaks the cycle at least for one
day a week and that's a good thing that
makes me better as a human being so
limit I set for myself and then a limit
that I abide by and if you believe in in
self mastery where's the happy medium
between self mastery and I need a little
bit of a and I think that there there is
a happy medium there but I'm not sure
that that your drugs are the answer to I
don't think you're suggesting drugs no
I'm not suggesting that there's also a
problem with the word drugs that
everything is under that blanket and
that blanket can be entirely negative or
extremely positive I know but that's a
there's a prize it to I mean not
accusing you but that that term it's a
problem it's a problem term because what
these are are substances that are
psychoactive and some of them can be
extremely beneficial and some of them
have short term
experiences that last with long-term
results and I don't think that there's
enough knowledge that I don't think the
people that are negative against it have
experienced enough of it or have looked
at it in an objective rational way
because I think it's something that
could be here to aid perspective to give
people a chance to think outside of
their normal conditioned way of thinking
that might have been established by
their community or by their church by
their neighborhood whatever it is
sometimes a little bit of a break a
little bit of a mental break from what
you're experiencing and the vibration
that you exist on almost every day to
separate from that and to get a look at
it from the outside
sometimes it allows you to have a
renewed perspective that can enhance
your life greatly