Jono: With manipulative, conniving people... Coraline: Mom?
Jono: There's always going to come a moment
where they ask you to do something that you're uncomfortable with.
Other Mother: You could stay here forever.
Jono: We only want what's best for you.
This film is such a cautionary tale against the people in your life
who would give you everything that you ever wanted.
Other Father: We'll sing and play games and mother will cook your favorite meal.
Jono: You have to ask.. Alan: Why?
Jono: And so there's a cautionary tale not just about the manipulators,
but also just about escaping.
Reality isn't always the best, but it's also real.
Mr. Bobinsky: Do not go through little door.
Jono: There is value in escapism,
but if it overtakes everything, nothing gets better.
Alan: Henry Selick and the whole team.
Alan: What a bunch of weird, twisted, crazy geniuses. Jono: Yeah.
Alan: Like, wow.
Hello and welcome to Cinema Therapy.
I am Alan Seawright, professional filmmaker who needs therapy.
That is a different person.
Jono: Named Jonathan Decker, licensed therapist who loves movies.
What's going on today, man?
Alan: You're wearing a golf shirt.
Jono: Indeed I am.
Don't hate the player. Hate the game, son.
Alan: He's changing it up.
It's not just polos anymore.
It's also golf shirts.
Jono: Produced by Polo.
Alan: Which is weird because you don't golf.
Jono: I... I mini golf.
Alan: Do you topgolf?
Jono: I've done topgolf.
I'm usually just there for the wings and to watch other people topgolf.
I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass.
Alan: Today I'm going to have you react to a movie film as we often do.
This one is animated, but not pictures.
Clay.
Coraline.
Jono: Ok, Coraline is the scariest PG movie I've ever seen.
Alan: It's one of the scariest movies I've ever seen.
It's so damn scary.
Jono: Well, here's what it is. It's unsettling.
Alan: It's just... It's deeply, on a gut level... This is wrong and I don't like being here.
Jono: But you also kind of like being here. Alan: But I love it.
Jono: Yeah, it's really, really awesome. Alan: So good.
Oh, God, you're so good.
Alan: You're a relationship expert, particularly with families. Jono: I am.
Alan: I've heard.
There's some family stuff. Family drama.
Jono: I'm so excited.
Alan: Parents. Other parents.
Jono: So... Alan: What did they do to you?
Jono: When we say that these episodes are unscripted, here's the proof.
Alan: What the beep is a script?
Ohhhhh...
Jono: Gotta get that animated film F-bomb in there.
Alan: Gotta get that F-bomb in there.
Jono: Oh, let's go.
Coraline: I almost fell down a well yesterday, Mom.
Mum: Uh huh.
Coraline: I would have died.
Mum: That's nice.
Jono: So Mom's aloof. What are they using for the droplets?
Coraline: I think it's perfect weather for gardening.
Jono: Because it's not just water.
Mum: Rain makes mud. Mud makes a mess.
Coraline: I want stuff growing when my friends come to visit.
Isn't that why we moved here?
Mum: Something like that.
But then we had the accident.
Coraline: It wasn't my fault you hit that truck.
Mum: I never said it was.
Coraline: Can't believe it.
Jono: Tangent, this is...
Coraline: ...plants. And...
Jono: This is the only 3D movie that I thought was better in 3D.
Alan: I never saw it in 3D.
Jono: Because it's all built by hand.
It really pops when you see it.
Alan: Really? That makes sense.
It's like being inside a diorama.
Jono: Yeah. Yeah, It was super cool.
Alan: I could get behind that.
Jono: Her Dad Looks like how I feel. Coraline: Dad.
Dad: Hello, Coraline. And Coraline doll.
Coraline: Do you know where the garden tools are?
Dad: It's, um, it's pouring out there, isn't it?
Coraline: It's just raining.
Dad: What'd the boss say.
Coraline: "Don't even think about going out, Coraline Jones!"
Dad: Then you won't need the tools.
Alan: I have had that exact conversation.
And this one.
[creak, creak, creaaaaak]
Dad: Oh, you know, this house is 150 years old.
Coraline: So...?
Dad: So explore it.
Go out and count all the doors and windows and write that down. List everything that's blue.
Just let me work.
Jono: Yeah. Alan: Yeah.
Jono: That hits a little too close to home. Alan: Done that.
Jono: Giving your kids meaningless tasks just to... Alan: Mm hmm.
Jono: Yeah. Alan: Here, eat time.
This episode is sponsored by AG1 by Athletic Greens.
Jono: AG1 is a nutritional drink that helps me to simplify my health routine.
Alan: It has 75 ingredients, including vitamins, minerals, superfoods, probiotics, and adaptogens.
Jono: AG1 is more than a greens powder.
Alan: It is your daily multivitamin.
Jono: And multimineral. I am the very model of a modern major-general.
Alan: Also has pre- and probiotics.
Jono: Plus your daily dose of greens, too.
Alan: So it looks like it would kind of taste like grass clippings.
But what it tastes like is not that. Jono: Actually...
Alan: It's actually pretty good.
Jono: It tastes kind of like a chocolat-y protein powder.
Alan: There's a bunch of different flavors in it, depending on what you're looking for.
But overall, the thing is, it tastes like health,
but not in a way that makes me sad.
Jono: It tastes like something you're like, Oh, there you go, body.
Alan: Yeah. There you go, bod.
Jono: Sorry about all the crap I put into you.
Alan: I'm sorry about all the M&Ms last week.
This will make up for it.
I'm excited about how AG1 can help me with my post-workout recovery.
Did you know that the superfoods and adaptogens, like magnesium,
help with muscle recovery after a strenuous workout
that I obviously do constantly.
Jono: And I'm loving how AG1 is helping me to have more energy
with natural vitamin B12, biotin, and a lot of other great stuff.
Alan: And it is such an easy daily habit.
After my workout, I just mix a scoop with 8 ounces of water.
It's simple, it's easy, it's a tasty part of my morning routine.
And again, it doesn't taste like sadness.
That's green.
Jono: Go to AthleticGreens.Com/cine
Alan: That's AthleticGreens.com/cine
Jono: To get started on your order.
Alan: Athletic Greens is going to give our community a free one year supply
of immune-supporting vitamin D3 plus K2...
Jono: And 5 free travel packets with your first purchase.
In 3D!
Alan: We do not have the budget for that.
Jono: So we see at the beginning Coraline and her family
somewhere up there in the Northwest where it's rainy and kind of drab and...
But her parents are aloof, wrapped up in their own stuff.
And when I watched this when it first came out and I was single and had no kids,
I thought they were crap parents.
Alan: What terrible parents!
Jono: And now I watch them like...
Alan: Oh, what relatable parents...
Jono: It's not my job to entertain you all the time, you know.
When I was a kid, I had my my action figures and my imagination, and I was good.
Go make some friends, you know, like all this.
And so they're not terrible parents and they deeply love her,
but they're also just kind of...
Alan: They're busy. They got stuff to do. Jono: Yeah.
Alan: They got to pay off a car accident. Jono: Yeah.
It just strikes me that what's negligent in the eyes of a child
and what's negligent in the eyes of a parent are two different things. Alan: Yes.
Jono: Very often for kids, it's, I want you all the time.
I want you to be my buddy. And I want you to be my social security blanket.
And I want you to, you know, the adventures and the fun times.
And it's really hard for kids to embrace boredom.
Alan: Oh, man. Ever...
Like, at one point when Audrey was, like, 3 or 4,
she had just been trailing Megan around the house all day,
while Megan was doing tasks and work and getting stuff done,
and just being her shadow for, like, hours. Jono: Yeah.
Alan: And, like, kind of just kept pestering and, like, poke, poke, poke poke, poke at Megan,
and Megan finally had had enough, and it was like, What? What do you want?
And she was like, I just want to be with you.
And on the one hand, it's like that is the cutest,
most adorable thing that's ever happened.
And on the other hand...
Just... Mmmm.
Jono: They can never get the timing right.
You know, when kids are clingy, we want them to be independent.
And then when they're older and they're being too independent,
we're like, Cling more. You know, just...
Alan: Don't you just want to be with me?
Jono: It's adorable. Alan: Yeah.
Coraline: Something smells good.
Jono: So she's crawling through the tunnel.
This alternate dimension here.
You notice how gray everything is, and blue everything is in her real world.
Alan: And here it's all warm and bright and cheery and clean.
Other Mother: You're just in time for supper, dear.
Jono: Why...?
Coraline: You're not my mother.
My mother doesn't have. B-b-...
Other Mother: B-b-b-buttons?
Do you like them? I'm your Other Mother, silly.
Now go tell your Other Father that supper's ready.
Well, go on. He's in his study.
Jono: Why...? Why is it so creepy?
Alan: I... Well, I mean, buttons for eyes is terrifying to begin with.
Coraline: Hello?
Jono: Look at this room.
...Coraline.
Other Father: Wanna hear my new song?
Coraline: My father can't play piano.
Other Father: No need to.
Jono: That was really fun in 3D.
Alan: I bet.
Other Father: ♬♬ Making up a song about Coraline ♬♬
♬♬ She's a peach... ♬♬
Jono: Who does he sing for in real life?
Is that They Might Be Giants or Barenaked Ladies?
Alan: John Hodgman?
No, he's a Mac. No, he's a PC!
Jono: He was that guy? Alan: Yeah, he's that guy.
Other Father: ♬♬ When she come around exploring... ♬♬
Jono: Well, he's great. Look at... Look at the design on this. Look at this!
Alan: It's so much fun.
Other Father: ♬♬ ...on Coraline ♬♬
Alan: And that is a tough shot to animate.
Coraline: ...but she said to tell you the food's ready.
Other Father: Hmm. Who's starving? Raise your hand. Whoa ho ho.
Jono: So obviously, unlike her actual father, he's peppy and excited to see her and...
Alan: Pays attention to her. He's writing upbeat tunes about her.
Jono: Yeah, the whole song is just about her.
Right? And her Other Mother is just there to meet her every need.
And, yeah, something's off.
Alan: Yeah. To your point about why is it so creepy to have buttons for eyes. Jono: Yeah.
Alan: Well, buttons are just creepy. Think about it.
Everything should be zippers.
Jono: Or Velcro.
Alan: Oh, Velcro is great.
Jono: Velcro is God's own fabric.
Alan: Velcro never scared you.
Buttons do all the time.
No, not the buttons!
Not my gumdrop buttons!
Alan: So what it's... What it's really getting at here is
if you want to live in this world with them,
you have to blind yourself to the reality of, like, this isn't really real life.
Jono: Later on, when she is with the black cat and the black cat's guiding her through,
she sees that it's a small world.
You reach the edge of the lawn and then there's nothing.
Then you walk in white nothingness, and then you come back to this little created reality.
And I think the symbolism of that, for someone who is predatory,
or someone who is controlling and manipulative is they want to turn your attention
just to this narrow tunnel vision of things.
And so because ultimately they're going to ask her to sew buttons into her eyes.
And... yeeesh.
Other Mother: Welcome back, darling.
Jono: Alternate universe.
Other Mother: So thoughtful of you to send this nice cheddar, Coraline.
Coraline: Cheddar? Oh, the mice bait.
Other Mother: Would you go fetch your father?
I bet he's hungry as a pumpkin by now.
Coraline: You mean my Other Father.
Other Mother: Your better father, dear.
He's out in the garden.
Coraline: But my parents don't have time to garden. Other Mother: Shush shush.
Go on.
Jono: Everything's bright and colorful.
Alan: Well, and just, you know, her real parents don't have time.
Don't have time to garden.
Jono: Yeah. I mean, narratively, these other dimensional beings
that are luring her in for nefarious purposes are paying attention to what she likes. Alan: Right.
Jono: And that's the thing about predators and dangerous people is
they pay attention to what your wants and needs are, where you're feeling neglected,
where you're feeling unhappy, and then they give you what you want.
And it's with a dark reason and it's with a dark purpose.
It's actually a really beautiful relationship skill and a healthy relationship
to pay attention to someone's likes, dislikes, wants and needs. Alan: Mm hmm.
Jono: But it's all about the motive behind it.
And this film is such a cautionary tale against the people in your life
who would give you everything that you ever wanted. You have to ask...
Alan: Why...? Jono: Yeah.
Alan: Why is this happening? Jono: Yeah.
Alan: Never trust nice people.
Jono: Wow.
Not Jono: Wow.
Jono: Wow.
Not Jono: Wow.
Jono: Wow.
Not Jono: Wow...
Jono: Wow.
Wow. That's a good message.
Be friends with a[beeps].
Alan: At least you know where they stand, I guess.
Dad: ♬♬ Oh, my twitchy, witchy girl ♬♬
♬♬ I think you are so nice ♬♬
♬♬ I give you bowls of porridge ♬♬
♬♬ And I give you bowls of ice cream ♬♬
Coraline: Why don't you ever cook, Mom?
Mum: Coraline, we've been through this before.
Your dad cooks, I clean, and you stay out of the way.
I swear I'll go food shopping soon as we finish the catalog.
Try some of the chard. You need a vegetable.
Jono: That's the thing about escapism. Like, this is so drab.
Jono: And... Dad: ...bedtime, fusspot
Alan: Green.
Coraline: Think they're trying to poison me?
Jono: Like, who wouldn't want to escape to the world where all the food on the table
is this giant delicious feast, or the actual garden
is just full of life and wonder and happiness.
And so there's a cautionary tale not just about predators,
but also just about escaping. Alan: Right.
Jono: It can become all-consuming.
We want to go to these virtual worlds.
We want to go to the movie worlds or the video games.
And all of this is fine in moderation.
Jono: But what happens when you never come back out? Alan: Yeah.
Jono: And some people are watching this right now going, Oh, that sounds fantastic.
Alan: Sounds awesome. See you there.
I'll see you bright and early, 9:00.
Be there or be square.
Jono: But there's danger there.
Jono: There's danger there in that things never get better. Alan: Right.
Jono: And there's danger there in that you never actually grow.
You just get more and more scared and more and more trapped, you know.
I knew somebody one time whose entire life was inside an apartment,
playing video games and watching movies because they were too afraid to live their life.
And honestly, as as great as it sounds to live your life, eating junk food,
playing video games and watching movies,
he was one of the most miserable people I've ever known.
Alan: Oh, yeah.
Jono: You know, because there was no balance, because there was no life.
Because it was all an escape from, I don't like how my life is.
And instead of facing it and changing it,
it was just, I'm going to keep going deeper and deeper away from it.
And that's not a healthy behavior.
I mean, obviously.
Obviously.
Jono: So yeah, she's getting slop and gruel in the real world.
My mom used to say, if something seems too good to be true...
Other Father: ...thanks and ask to bless...
Alan: It probably is.
Other Father: ...golden chicken breast.
Jono: If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.
It's very much the table at Hogwarts, right?
Alan: Except better than the table at Hogwarts, because there's a train on it.
Other Mother: Hungry, aren't you?
Jono: You do love trains.
Alan: I love trains. I'm such a dork. Other Mother: Here comes the gravy train.
Choo choo.
Alan: That must have been fun in 3D.
Jono: Yeah, well, a lot of it isn't, like, a lot of 3D, they do things that are gimmicky. Alan: Right.
Jono: And this is just more about the texture.
Coraline: I'm real thirsty.
Other Mother: Of course. Any requests?
Coraline: Mango milkshake?
Coraline: Home?
Other Mother: We've been waiting for you, Coraline.
Coraline: For me?
Other Father: Yep. Wasn't the same here without you, kiddo.
Coraline: I didn't know I had another mother.
Other Mother: Of course you do.
Everyone does.
Jono: So here's my question for you from a filmmaking standpoint. Alan: Mm hmm.
Jono: There's a lot I see in movies,
where you take something that's supposed to be wholesome and sweet and happy. Alan: Mm hmm.
Jono: And then making it unsettling. Alan: Yeah.
Jono: Because on the surface, this should... this is heaven. Alan: Sure. It's great.
Jono: So why do I feel so creeped out all the time? Other than the button eyes?
Alan: If you're playing a lot of music on bells in a minor key with a choir going, Ooh, ooh. Like...
That's going to creep you right out.
[heebie-jeebies soundtrack]
Alan: That's real scary.
Jono: And the sugary sweetness of her Other Mother.
Alan: It's too much. Like, everything is what you would want
and then just slightly too much of it. Jono: Yeah.
Alan: And that's what makes it just, like, itchy at the back of your head.
Jono: Again, back to predators and manipulators.
Jono: That's their bread and butter. But there's something off. Alan: Right.
Jono: And even though her real life is drab and unpleasant,
it's safe and it's real and it's reliable.
Whereas this, because, like you're saying, it seems too good to be true, so it probably is,
if you're Coraline, and they do a good job with this throughout the film,
you could see that even though she enjoys it, she's always questioning it.
With manipulative, conniving people, there's always going to come a moment
where they ask you to do something that you're uncomfortable with. Alan: Right.
Jono: And something that you would have automatically said no to at the beginning.
But they've spent so much time.
Alan: They've tried to accrue so much, like...
Jono: Goodwill. Alan: Yeah.
Jono: And you're safe and this is fine.
And if you're young enough, you might just go right along with it, because... Alan: You may not know.
Jono: Because they've painted this whole picture that's made you feel warm and safe and welcome and loved.
And so then they'll ask you to do something and you'll be like, Okay, because this is just part of it.
If you're a little bit older, it's... you get that sick feeling in your stomach...
...of, this is a betrayal.
You get the sick feeling of your stomach of, I'm not safe. This isn't what I thought it was.
And in her case, they ask her to sew buttons into her eyes.
Alan: Buttons into her eyes. So sharp, you'll barely feel a thing.
Jono: Oh, my gosh.
Alan: So creepy!
Jono: Creepy thing to say. So she refuses. And usually that's when the switch flips. Alan: Yeah.
Jono: Because in their... in their words, I did all of this for you and you can't do this for me.
And that is a manipulative behavior.
Alan: Do you want to see this but also longer and no adds? You can.
On our Patron, Patreon.com/CinemaTherapy
Director's cuts and lots of other great stuff.
And you support us, and we feel good.
The Beldam: You may come out when you've learned to be a loving daughter.
Jono: I love the black lightness of it all.
Alan: Yeah. Really fun.
Coraline: Who's there?
Ghost Girl: Hush, and shush for the beldam might be listening.
Coraline: You mean the Other Mother?
Jono: Hush and shush.
Coraline: Who are you?
Ghost Boy: Don't remember our names.
But I remember my true mommy.
Coraline: Why are you all here?
Ghost Girl: The beldam. She spied on our lives through the little dolls eyes.
Ghost Boy: And saw that we weren't happy.
Ghost Girl: So she lured us away. With treasures and treats and games to play.
Ghost Boy: Gave all that we asked.
Ghost Girl: Yet we still wanted more.
So we let her sow the buttons.
Jono: Ooh...
Ghost Boy: She said that she loved us.
Ghost Girl: But she locked us here.
And ate up our lives.
Coraline: Well, she can't keep me in the dark forever.
Not if she wants to win my life.
Beating her is my only chance.
Ghost Girl: Perhaps if you do win your escape...
Alan: They're so creepy. Like the...
The thing that really sticks out to me.
Ghost Girl: And hidden them.
Ghost Boy: Find our eyes.
Alan: The animation. You know, it's stop motion animation,
but they're actually doing fewer frames,
and then they're doing that weird frame blending thing between them.
And it's just...
Because we've been in this world, you know, stop motion animation, obviously,
doesn't look like real life at all. Jono: Yeah.
Alan: Clay. Jono: Yeah.
Alan: Or plasticine or whatever it is, doing weird stuff.
But we've been in this world for long enough at this point that it just feels normal. Jono: Yeah, right.
Alan: Coming up with a new way to animate, to throw you off and feel weird in this world
that's already so weird is, like, a big ask.
And Henry Selick and the whole team in Oregon have made this.
Alan: What a bunch of weird, twisted, crazy geniuses. Jono: Yeah.
Alan: Like, wow, great work, super creepy, constantly inventive and new and just... Yeah.
Jono: And what struck me is just now, as we're watching this to have this conversation,
is how creepy and terrifying the children are. Except for you're not terrified of them. Alan: Right.
Jono: You're terrified of what they've become because of the Other Mother.
Jono: It actually serves to make her scarier. Alan: Yeah.
Jono: You don't fear for Coraline in this space with them.
Jono: You don't feel like they're going to attack her. Alan: Yeah, no, she's okay.
Jono: But you just see that this is what she could become.
Alan: This is what's going to happen to her if the beldam has her way with her.
Jono: And then the fact that their lips don't move. Alan: Mm hmm.
And the one is just in a scream all the time.
Jono: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I can't. I can't even.
There are gory, R-rated horror films that have unsettled me far less so.
Alan: Much less scary than this.
Jono: Yeah, this is... Oh, man.
Oh, her Russian neighbor with the mouse circus.
But this is the other world version, which is...
Other Mr. Bobinsky: Hello, galoobooshka.
Coraline: I'm Coraline.
Other Mr. Bobinsky: Is this what you're looking for?
Jono: Children's eyes
Other Mr. Bobinsky: You think winning game is good thing?.
You just go home and be bored and neglected.
Same as always.
Stay with us.
Alan: Speaking of the animation, just being...
Other Mr. Bobinsky: ...to you and laugh with you.
Alan: ...creepy.
Jono: Oh... oh!
Jono: Oh!
Other Mr. Bobinsky: But if you stay here, you can have whatever you want. Always!
Coraline: You don't get it, do you?
Other Mr. Bobinsky: I don't understand.
Coraline: Of course you don't understand.
You're just a copy she made of the real Mr. B.
Other Mr. Bobinsky: Not even that anymore.
Jono: Oh, come on.
Jono: Oh, my gosh. Alan: Bleurgh!
Jono: He says, Why would you go back? You'll just be bored.
Stay with us. We'll love you. We'll entertain you. We'll...
And that, speaking of escapism versus reality, reality isn't always the best.
In fact, it frequently isn't.
Alan: It's boring. And you get neglected and you eat weird, sloppy chard.
Jono: But it's also real.
And living in it makes the escape more enjoyable than if you just spend your time,
like, all day, every day in escape.
And I have to imagine there are those, watching this episode right now,
that there's an unhealthy balance. Alan: Yeah.
Jono: Sure. YouTube is great. You know, we're on YouTube, we're fans. Alan: Yeah.
Jono: But that this is your life.
And it's your life, because your actual life, you don't want to face it.
There is value in escapism, but if it overtakes everything...
Jono: Nothing gets better. Alan: Yeah.
Jono: Nothing gets put right.
Or maybe sometimes things can't be put right, which is why you escape so deep down this rabbit hole.
But it's not right here either, because here you feel afraid.
And what I love about the story of Coraline is the serious amounts of courage that it takes for her
to get out of the dream world and then to go back to her drab reality
and to accept the blah-ness of life sometimes.
Alan: And to embrace it. I mean, by the end, she's embracing, like, all of life,
including the just boring greenish grayness of Oregon.
Jono: Yeah. Well, and then things start to look up with her parents, because instead of avoiding them
or pressuring them, she just starts to live.
And then they follow her example and then they're out in the garden,
you know, and it's muddy and it's icky and there's worms and it's gross.
But they're doing it, you know.
And her mother does go food shopping, and sometimes things get better if you wait them out. Alan: Yeah.
Jono: And sometimes they don't.
But we have to face them.
And when things aren't that great, that's when we're at our most vulnerable to the manipulators,
either in our real life circles or, you know, in media.
Alan: Media, whatever, whatever it is, wherever you're escaping.
Jono: And so stay alert and stay focused and stay sharp. That's me.
Alan: Stay on target.
Stay on target.
We're too close.
Stay on target.
Jono: So until next time...
Alan: Hellloooo galoooshka.
Jono: It's so sharp that you won't feel a thing.
Internet Dads: And... watch movies.
Jono: Oh, gosh.
Alan: I really don't know what he was trying to say there.
Galobushka, as far as I know, isn't a word in Russian.
Jono: I think the idea is that he's...
Alan: So drunk and he's such a pile of rats that he's not saying anything real?
Jono: Yeah, I think that's the idea.
Alan: Okay.
Jono: There you go.
Alan: Halo galobooshka.