Saul was not you know met by somebody
who says by the way Saul I'd like to
introduce you to the ontological
argument uh I think you know if we spend
a couple of hours talking this one
through or we talk about the argument
from design and Saul says you know
you're right I'm on the way to Damascus
and now I believe in God didn't work
that way it doesn't work that way hang
on Michael hang
on you see Paul was
convinced what was the evidence an
appearance of the Risen Christ that's
what started
Christianity it was the appearance of
the Risen Christ and the fact that there
was evidence of the other kind for his
resurrection that launched Christianity
on the world and I'm intrigued by your
example welcome back everybody this clip
that we're about to watch is very
interesting it's a debate moment between
Michael Roose who's an atheist and John
Linux who is a Christian and in this
portion of the debate it's about 10
minutes long there's three big questions
that Michael ruse brings up that John
Linux ends up answering but then as they
kind of go back and forth in debate
about his answers to those three
questions Michael ruse also brings to
the surface two implicit admissions of
his opponent's position that I think is
really interesting you have to pay
attention to really sort of see it so I
will pause at just a few moments in this
video I'll mostly let the clip play
itself out and then I'll give you guys
some of my thoughts on the back end with
that being said let's do it let's dive
in if we do have a designer what is this
designer John and I before we came in as
two old men tend to do we were swapping
stories about you know I'm more Gravely
ill than you are sort of
thing you
know I'm going to collapse on stage
before you
do uh but I mean let's take something
that neither of us brought up
hemorrhoids my father
have I can't believe that any God who
cared a bit about human beings would
have invented a world which allowed
hemorrhoids so I think if you're going
to get into design then you've got to
take the rough with the smooth as it
were and so I I think there are all
sorts of issues like that there's three
issues to get us going he's cutting me
off he's cutting me off already I was
told not to bring those sorts of
examples up well if if you're happy
should we start at least with one of
those and see where oh I'd like to start
with all three
I so as as if memory serves there's the
question of uh natural theology um
Michael doesn't like that he thinks if
if you're going to believe believe on
the basis of faith alone not not some um
speculation about the universe there's
this question of well where did God come
from in the first place and then and
then there's this question of why if if
it's a designer why hemorrhoids so um
yes right well to take the first one
it's quite clear that Michael and I did
differ fundamentally on what we mean by
faith because you see Faith to me is
part and parcel of my life as an
intellectual and a scientist scientists
believe certain things I believe in the
theory of gravitational attraction why
is that because I have evidence for it I
believe that my wife loves me why
because I have evidence for it and my
Christian faith consists not in faith as
a leap into the unknown it's
evidence-based commitment otherwise I
wouldn't be remotely interested in
Christianity and I noticed that Richard
Dawkins faith is heavily evidence-based
that's why he writes a 400 page book
called The God Delusion so I think we'
have a fundamental difference about
faith and secondly um I didn't use the
word proof Michael I'm too much a
mathematician to use the word proof I
think it's a question of evidence it's
very interesting to me that when Paul
talks about the impact of the universe
he says that the existence of God in his
power are perceived through the things
that are made it's a perception and what
intrigues me is that perception is
admitted by so many people that you
would think would not admit it Dawan
says it's terribly tempting to believe
that it designed Steven Hawking
co-authors a book called The Grand
design why because he sees design and
then there comes all the uh arguments
that I don't find convincing to say well
it's not real design it's only apparent
design so that's the first thing my
faith is an evidence-based commitment
secondly the question of who designed
the designer and Richard Dawkins put
that to me and it's the heart of The God
Delusion argument if you say God created
the universe then you have to ask who
created God well do you
because if you ask the question who or
what created X then you're assuming that
X was
created but the biblical God wasn't
created so the question doesn't even
apply to him so it's one of these
questions that you think is asking
something seriously important but it
misses the point and I actually put it
to Dawkins in the end I said your
question makes no
sense apart from about created things
but I don't need you to tell me that
created gods are a delusion most of us
think they are we call them Idols but I
said let me try your question on you you
believe the universe created you so if
your question is valid let me ask you it
who created your creator I've waited 10
years and got no answer to that before
you come to part three because that the
hemorrhoids question is really a
question of of evil and I think I'm
going to park that and perhaps we'll
come back to it a little bit later on
but we've got plenty me not no no no I I
do want to address it but at least with
these first two issues and John's
response is there Michael what's your
take can I well I I particularly want to
talk about the first one this whole
question of
evidence-based and what exactly does
that mean if for instance somebody tells
me as as I was taught by my physics
Master when I was at school uh if if I'm
told that Galileo's laws work or
something like that and then the physics
Master says well let's do some
experiments to show you exactly how how
this sort of thing does and we spring
some pendulums back and forth and that
sort of thing now I take it that that's
an
evidence-based belief that I'm going to
go away with that missiles go in
parabolas rather than in in circles or
regular circles or something like that
now that I see is evidence-based now
let's go back to the whole question of
of of God as I said I I don't want to
take evidence out of the story but I'm
worried about evidence being used to
justify these beliefs in God I believe
in design because I believe in God I do
not believe in God because I believe in
design whereas I think in the physics
case I do believe in galilea's laws
because I believe that the physical
evidence was there so it seems to me
obvious that any Christian is going to
look at the world and interpret the
world in an evidence-based way I mean
for instance think about the difference
between Heinrich himler and Sophie schaw
who died on the guillotine because she
was a member of the white rose group in
in Munich surely anybody who's a
Christian is going to interpret these
actions and it's it's going to be
evidence-based in that sort of sense
that yes that I see here is a p a case
of a person who is made in the image of
God and that's what makes them evil if
they were just a wild dog they would be
dangerous but they wouldn't be evil
whereas I would as a Christian I would
see Hinrich himler as deeply evil where
I'd see Sophie Shaw as as as as
transcendently good so it's
evidence-based in that sense but it's
not proving my beliefs my beliefs are
something that I have through faith it
really is a question folks of of of Saul
on the way to Damascus Hinrich himler I
think is how you pronounce it is one of
the leading people in the Nazi party and
really one of the architects of the
Holocaust and what he's saying is that
on Christianity you look out through the
lens of that people are made in the
image of God and you determine that he
is an evil person or that his actions
are morally evil but without that lens
the best you can say is that he's
dangerous and what I think is
interesting here is the implicit
admission of the fact that the Christian
lens gives you a more accurate view into
the actions of this Nazi person who I
think we would all agree what he's doing
is morally evil it's not just dangerous
it's different than the behavior of a
dog because there's something different
about a man than a dog and not just in
terms of of uh quantity but there's a
qualitative difference there's an
ontological difference between a rabid
dog and an evil man architecting if
that's a word the Holocaust so hopefully
that distinction is helpful and I think
it's very interesting that he himself
arguing on the atheist side admits this
let's let's get back into it Saul was
not you know met by somebody who says by
the way Saul I'd like to introduce you
to the anthological
argument I think you know if we spend a
couple of hours talking this one through
or we talk about the argument from
design and says you know you're right
I'm on the way to Damascus and now I
believe in God didn't work that way it
doesn't work that way it's it's the gift
of God that's what that's the basis of
but hang on Michael hang
on you see Paul was
convinced what was the evidence an
appearance of the Risen Christ that's
what started
Christianity it was the appearance of
the Risen Christ and the fact that there
was evidence of the other kind for his
resurrection that launched Christianity
on the world and I'm intrigued by your
example the moral example you gave you
see you mentioned what I would call
testability you can test test Newton's
laws and all this kind of thing and I'm
constantly up against the question how
can you as a scientist believe this
stuff when it's not
testable and I say who said it isn't
testable you see I why am I sitting here
as a Christian because I tested the
claims that Christ has made let me give
you one simple example we might want to
deal with this later on I don't know but
Christ promises that those who trust him
and receive him will receive peace with
God and forgiveness and a new life and a
new power I've seen that happen to me
and to people endless times and when you
see two and two make four all the time
you begin to believe that two and two
make four I think it's eminently
testable and so to come back on
Michael's side for a moment I think
there are different levels of argument
Michael you mentioned testing laws in
the laboratory but there are many things
in science as we know that are not
testable you can't test the origin of
life in the lab you have to make an
inference to the best explanation in the
past and that is true of many things so
for me the evidence on which my faith is
B based is cumulative part of it is
objective intellectual arguments and all
this kind of thing but a great deal of
it has to do with the evidence of does
it actually work in life and when he
says does it actually work in life here
he's not just saying is Christianity
true as a useful delusion he's saying
have people truly encountered and
experienced and known the god that is
picted in the pages of scripture I love
that it's that it's the atheist here who
is describing the road to Damascus
experience and he's saying that Paul
wasn't just given the ontological
argument but he was encountered with the
Risen Christ and it's so interesting to
me that he's the one making this point
because he's exactly right a part of the
evidence that Christianity is true is
the millions and millions and millions
of people who are saying the same thing
that Paul was saying which is I once was
blind but now I see I once was lost but
now I'm found I've actually been changed
through knowing a person now the
Resurrection being true is is relevant
on so many different levels one level is
that it means that Christ has defeated
death and has given us hope that hope is
found nowhere else there's no other
solution to the big death problem the
Fountain of Life that exists in Christ
is opened up and given to humanity
because the perfect person the one
perfect person the God man Jesus Christ
100% God 100%
man has done the thing that we needed
him to do and then has transcended over
death and then offers us the gift of
life that's why scriptures say he who
has the son has life he who does not
have the son does not have life the
wages of sin that we're all guilty of is
death the gift of God that we all are
being given in Christ is eternal life so
there's that piece but then there's this
idea of if it's true that he's really
risen then that means that he's really
still alive and if he's really still
alive then what is he in the business of
doing where is Jesus if he's still alive
that's what is so interesting about the
Paul story here and the road to Damascus
experience is that you see the Risen
Christ encountering a person it changes
that person's life and they go on to
live differently and they go on to live
a life in Union with Christ in Union
with the spirit and ultimately to change
the world that's the same story of these
once scared once scattered Apostles and
and disciples they go on to be the Brave
and Mighty Men of God filled clothed
with power from on high as it says in
the scriptures after they tered
Jerusalem and they go on to change the
world but it doesn't stop right there
with just the the apostles that wave of
of of Christian Revolution goes out to
change the entire trajectory of human
history that's why Jesus is the single
most significant person in history is
because look what happened right there
right right as the church was born right
at the exact critical point in history
the more that you look into the
fingerprint of the Risen Christ in
history the more clear it becomes Tom
Holland has an amazing book on this if
you're interested in that other people
have written about how Christianity has
radically changed and blessed and
elevated the world and elevated every
single culture that it's ever permeated
into so the point here though is that
one of the evidences that for the fact
that Christianity is true is that people
throughout the last 2,000 years have
also encountered the Risen Christ and
said that Jesus
has changed my life that's a very
interesting thing that I think a lot of
times we just glaze over anyways I hope
you guys enjoyed this conversation
because I I love this little moment of
this debate because you see the
evidence-based nature of Christianity
not just in terms of like I said at the
start of the video natural theology but
you also see it in terms of revealed
theology in other words as Gerard Manley
Hopkins put it the whole earth is
charged with God's Grandeur and it
shines out like shook foil on one hand
but on the other hand you have God
revealing himself to people in the pages
of scripture primarily but then also in
a personal way that becomes undeniable
as death gives way to life and as people
are are day by day and culture by
culture and and Year bye transformed
into the image of Christ which is God's
big goal for the individual so with all
of that in in the rear room year thank
you guys for watching this video I hope
you enjoyed it I hope you found
something useful within this and I'll
see you guys in the next one thanks a
lot bye
[Music]