well it is my pleasure to have somebody
that I have admired for decades Linus
Torvalds joining me on uh at The
Innovation conference for a conversation
about history of Linux technology open
source so you know if you don't mind
Linus maybe just start out telling us
the early days right you know when Linux
was getting underway and what was that
like and you know take us back right
you're now 30 years old right you know a
little bit over 30 years old for Linux
so this has been an crazy Incredible
Journey so take us back to the beginning
right so
32 years ago
I got a new computer
and I was used to home computers and I
came from
for the Geeks among you I was used to
6502 CPUs originally and then upgraded
to the 68k series
and the c80 camp and the 8086 Camp was
kind of strange to me the
ugly inside I didn't like that
segmentation I really did not like that
at all right and and the odd addressing
too with no rules at all and but at the
same time the the writing was on the
wall and the 386 had come out right yes
yes and the 386 really changed it took
away well I mean it
you could ignore let's put it that's
right right you could ignore all the bad
parts and I really wanted to to learn
how it worked and that's where your book
comes in because that was one of the
basically two tomes I used to learn my
new machine
and start writing low-level code to
really understand it wasn't just a CPU
it was all the PC peripheral components
around it too
which I was completely unfamiliar with
and as I wrote a VGA character driver
I've heard the serial driver I've
learned how to get into protected mode
because that was kind of what I was
interested in and when you do that and
you work on it for a few months suddenly
what you have is kind of the beginning
of an operating system
and uh and I realized that if I took
this the next step I could actually use
this not just as a like teaching myself
how to
like system worked but also use it as a
daily driver
and uh and that's when I actually
started actively developing as an
operating system so when you you know
when it went from being you know hey
this is just me to learning the this new
machine to it becoming an operating
system do you have any idea what you
were unleashing no and I didn't really I
had a very low expectations because I
was always expecting that okay this is
one of these projects that I I will do
for myself and then at some point I will
get bored and then I will
get a real operating system eventually
which I couldn't afford at the time
because I came from not blue color but
like
not a pretty humble beginning exactly
right and um
so what happened was that I was still
pretty proud of what I started so I put
it out and it wasn't really
initially about open source for me
initially it was more like hey look at
What I've Done Right
kind of the this is this is kind of cool
this is interesting maybe somebody else
is interesting and that completely
changed everything
and and that's I went from being kind of
knowing about open source to being
completely convinced this is the only
way I ever wanted to do it that was my
light bulb moment because it
it wasn't initially so much that it
brought in all these other people
because that took a while it really
takes a while for the pro process to get
to the point where it's self-sustaining
but it meant that this project that
was my small thing
that I expected to go away
suddenly the open source part made it so
much more motivational for myself
because I got questions I got people
involved that said this doesn't work for
me can you do something about this I
ended up having to buy a math
co-processor because I didn't care
originally and and I wrote a small
slutter emulation layer but there was
this I think guy in Germany who said I
have a math code processor and I can't
use it it only uses your emulation and
it's really slow
so I actually got myself
Hardware just to be able to support
people who suddenly were interested in
this project that that I
hadn't taken so seriously before so so
all of us so this project is gaining
momentum you have people starting to
contribute around the world and it's
taking a life of its own and all of a
sudden you've unleashed the operating
system Wars you have all these other
unixes going on and free BSD and
Microsoft and so on and all of a sudden
it's not a little project anymore so
what's the Dynamics here well to me I
mean you mentioned all these other
operating systems but to me they didn't
matter right I didn't care
to me like they cared about you not
initially but eventually they started
noticing but but even when like we made
jokes about Windows being the enemy and
we made jokes about world domination and
they turned out to not be so much
fun after all because the world
domination kind of started happening and
and uh
Windows jokes
became pretty old too and and for the
people who actually were involved it was
never about the competition it was
really all about the technology and
making
making Linux itself better and and
it turns out a lot of people
ask for example but so BSD had all of a
lot of infrastructure already and and
it's really hard to take other people's
code and try to make that fit in your
world right so we never even went down
that path and there was also the bsdi
lawsuit and everything ugly going on on
that side which would have made it a
horribly bad idea but it was it was not
that we
well I mean it was that we really
ignored all the other operating systems
and and there were people who were in
both camps but they they're actually
fairly rare now you know so you know one
of the things so we're in the middle you
know obviously your friend Dirk honedale
you know worked for me at uh VMware and
we're in the middle of covid right and
all of a sudden everybody has to work
from home right you know and all of a
sudden we have distributed development
going on it wasn't actually all of a
sudden because I'd been working from
home precisely precisely and you know
this idea of fully distributed
development and I think you know how
often has the core Linux team actually
even been together in person I mean
you've always worked this way so someone
you know once again you were like
decades ahead of your time we literally
did not notice in fact somebody did the
statistics like in in some of the early
months and people staying more at home
meant that they were more productive
when it came to Kernel work
it did we do actually have a yearly
meeting where where maintainers get
together and discuss or do you actually
do work there we we do some work though
okay but it is it is social and it's a
way to fetch about what's going on and
what's going wrong and what's going
right and and uh we we missed that for a
couple of years but but it actually
happened two weeks ago so we're we're
back on track we have met each other
again face to face but it's the real
work it's all done over over email and
when we meet it's about the
it tends to really be about the social
issues not about code issues because
code you can discuss over email and you
can actually quote the
actual piece of code much more easily in
email than you can in person well yeah
and I you know as we were you know in
that period where now all of a sudden
everybody had to do distributive work it
was like man you've been doing this for
two and a half decades at that point and
it's wonderful it is wonderful I I mean
you can tell you a lot of tech companies
have trouble getting people to come back
to the office yeah I think it really has
been very much more productive you you
didn't realize how far ahead of your
time you were right there now talk about
open source in the context of cloud
right you know and cloud is taking
advantage of Open Source interesting
ways and just give us your perspective
on that you know what there's no
there's no cloud is taking advantage of
there's more like some companies are not
necessarily as good at
really participating in the process and
and it's what do you mean participating
in the process so
to be a really productive user you don't
have to just use the product you have to
interact with the whole process in doing
bug reports in helping support the
project and ultimately being part of the
actual development community and
some companies are more open to that
than others and it's maybe and it's not
so much cloud or not Cloud uh Intel has
been very good I mean I was thank you
which actually surprised it surprised me
because when I moved to the U.S
we had a lot of problems with Intel
Engineers that could not participate
because legal said no you cannot do the
lawyers
that was a problem and then something
happened and and it was almost like a
switch was turned and it must have been
something inside where the lawyers were
told make it work and and Intel became
one of the more active participants but
we have Cloud providers who are
um active participants and do a lot of
development and do very well and we have
Cloud providers who
I call them black holes I will not name
names
yes some some places you can probably
guess people go and become developers
inside that company and we never hear
from them again yeah so open source is
really about not just benefiting but
it's participating and contributing to
the ecosystem and the participation
doesn't necessarily have to be about
actual development because development
is something I mean development is a
part of it but it's not necessarily even
the major part always uh we have like I
concentrate obviously on development but
a lot of problems get found only once
you have users and and having companies
and individuals who
just test and who participate in
literally doing test cases doing
documentation
um just sometimes teaching other
companies how to participate has been a
huge deal so it's
um
it's multifaceted let's put it that way
that it's not necessarily people think
about open source as just the tech Geeks
Who do the programming but it actually
is a lot more than that now talk a
little bit more I mean part of Open
Source is also also the licensing model
right and how that you know has
progressed as well just talk a little
bit more on how you've participated in
that and your views on where that is
today well I mean we have multiple
different licensing models and uh I
happen to like some of them and I'm not
a fan fan of others but in the end
people choose the license that they are
most comfortable with and the open
source initiative has a few rules for
what a license has to do in order to be
called open source
and they basically boil down to
everybody has to be able to participate
and then you can have the details may
change but but you can't limit people's
participation or people's use
and
for me
personally it has always been
the legal side hasn't been as important
as the conceptual side to for me open
source is Tit for Tat
we all give each other something and
the tat is you give you give your
improvements back and and it turns out
in Game Theory Tit for Tat is considered
to be a fairly good strategy in general
not just in like when it comes to source
code but just as a as a general approach
to many problems and uh and I think one
of the most important parts to open
source for me has been that
everybody needs to feel like they
are in equal footing we've had a lot of
companies who do dual licensing and it's
perfectly legally fine but it tends to
result in a
in politics and internal strife about
the project when one company or one
entity has more rights than the other
entities
so I've tried to I've personally tried
to always keep all my projects that very
clearly I'm not special I'm the top
level maintainer when it comes to the
kernel but if somebody else does a
better job and one day that will happen
they will take over because I don't have
any special rights except for the fact
that people trust me because I've been
doing it for yeah there's like open
source trust I mean this idea you know
of contributing to the community right
and having the right you know the
exposure of the community and then
finally the trust of the community yes
but I mean so you say
I don't actually like the notion of
contributing to the community because
that implies a certain amount of
altruism that I'm not a huge believer in
so that's it for tat I I really think
it's more like
you're not contributing to the community
what you're doing is you're trying to
make a project better for yourself
and the rules of the project end up then
meaning that as you're making it better
for yourself and trying to improve your
own situation you kind of like
indirectly contribute to the community
but you're you should always be
motivated by by your needs and that's
actually how a lot of these open source
projects including very much the kernel
have have improved so much is because
I'm looking at all we've done in the
last 25 years and none of it was stuff
that I needed or I wanted because as far
as I was concerned
25 years ago the system pretty much did
what I needed right yeah and I've been
very fascinated you know when you know
when Linux were first starting I was a
young engineer right and watching this
and right and it was always curious to
me how it would play in the Enterprise
space right because Enterprise they meet
somebody to support it somebody they
maintain it they're not right you know
and some of the legal and security
aspects associated with that and that
was surprising to me you know how the
whole Enterprise license supported
version right of Open Source emerged a
lot of it took I mean all the initial
Enterprise use tended to be Grassroots
use where
somebody in the IGI yeah exactly often
they were not in I.T just decided I need
to do a print server for my office or
something like that and started using it
internally and uh and it took years for
especially legal does tend to be a bit
nervous when and it's it's licensing
obviously but it's in general when you
don't have anybody to blame
uh that that makes some people very very
cautious and and having all the
infrastructure including having
companies and uh to to blame when things
go wrong so that you have somebody you
can call and say hey come and fix this
that took a long time I mean it's
it
none of this has been exactly overnight
actually
uh so Linux
has been going on for a long time just
to contrast that with the other project
I started git
and that was almost overnight in
comparison it was like that was a
project that I kind of knew what I was
getting into and I've done this I've
started a project before and now I'm
starting a new project and I was like
this is going to take years and and
nobody's interested in Source current
code control anyway and and CBS has been
around for decades and nobody has ever
been able to to Really replace CBS and
and initially that seemed to be very
true and then that was overnight the
like the Ruby people strange people
started using it and suddenly just
exploded and and that was very different
from Linux which was which was
interesting to see yeah now let's let's
move forward a little bit
um Ai and machine learning right
obviously lots of Open Source projects
going on uh in that space But
in machine learning the data is maybe
more critical the training sets the data
sets associated with that right and say
a little bit more about you know your
views on how that could and should
evolve and do we need more open data
initiatives to complement what I'd say
is more open source here right the code
can be small the data is Big right I
mean we've seen that in other projects
too it's not just AI I think AI is the
one that people are now very aware of
just because it's such a big
like
big issue both technically and from an
economic standpoint but if you look at a
lot of other software and hardware
issues you do see some of the same
things where game engines for example
is something where
on the one hand you have the code and on
the other hand you have the data and the
the game environment and the two are
fairly clearly like separated and you
can have one game engine that runs many
different games and and a lot of the
intellectual property ends up being on
the on the pure data side yeah well and
even here I mean when we think about
things like ethical AI a lot of it has
nothing to do with the algorithms it has
everything to do with the training sets
you know for that algorithm and if
they're closed do I know that this was a
good model that was produced associated
with it well and we're seeing all the
same issues that you see with people
when when you have
data sets that are biased in ways you
don't even realize yeah no I I have to
say I'm not I only get involved with AI
in the sense that we see it on the
Kernel side in the on the hardware space
where we provide drivers for the
accelerators and uh and I've been so
hyper focused on the Kernel that
anything I say about AI is likely to be
wrong anyway
and I love what you said to me in our
stage uh interview I was trying to get
you to predict the future and right you
know 20 years down the road and how did
you describe yourself that I'm a
plotting engineer right and I'm I take
pride in that but I I realize it also
means that there are these people with
Visionaries that want to talk about the
big picture and I don't tend to be one
of those yeah well and I think there is
something in that constancy a purpose in
a consistent direction right you know
right you just keep progressing and you
need you need all kinds right you need
you need the kind of person who sticks
to one project for 30 years which I mean
not everybody will do right yeah that's
a different personality yeah
as well so so here we are right we're at
the Intel Innovation event right we say
you know and as I like to say you know
we used to have the Intel developer
forum and I am bringing back that Spirit
engaging with developers you know
rebuilding of you know our cred in the
open Community Open Standards you know
interfaces Wi-Fi's USB pcies now we're
doing chiplet standards Etc and as you
would look at us
how's Intel doing
well I think everybody knows that issue
the problems on the execution side have
been pretty painful for everybody and
it's
I don't I mean I don't see any of the
hardware and Fab issues what I see has
have seen are kind of the Fallout from
the Intel software development
standpoint where where the last few
years have not been quite as
ebullient as they were before and people
have not been as happy with with being
inside of Intel because I don't think
Intel has necessarily been a very happy
place for a few years and I'm hoping
that's changing well that's certainly my
job right to change it uh as well and
you know we're we're getting on it right
as we rebuild and obviously having
events like this one are about
rebuilding our commitment our engagement
uh you know with the community you know
participating driving uh standards as
well other advice for me
so what I've really liked about Intel is
when you do standards based around
Hardware uh I loved how nvme turned out
pcie is obviously another great thing
the
x86 architecture in general
I just think
put good Hardware out there and document
it enough that it will be the standard
that's that's all I ask for because that
makes my job so much easier
We There are clearly other companies
that don't do the documentation part for
example and and don't help
that's why you like me in the first
place I documented the three absolutely
right no documentation is important even
if I'm probably the wrong person to say
that since I never write any myself so
how dare you yeah no it's it's uh it's
being a bit
yeah asking others to do something I
can't do but it's also participation yes
being especially for a hardware company
when when it takes years to get a
process or a processor or or other new
hardware out into the market
and then it takes like a week when you
announce it and it's well it hopefully
takes a week when you announce it and
it's in on shelves
for us to support it it usually takes
months or years so being
proactive and actually interacting with
the community before the product is that
and Intel has been good in that sense
yeah well and tomorrow we'll be
announcing uh you know early Hardware on
the Intel Dev Cloud right which you know
starting to put up our products you know
months if not year or more you know that
developers start to have access to them
sooner and starting to really you know
to me I'm just passionate about this
this re-engagement you know that people
can start saying oh that's a cool idea
and we're ready to be tested on our
ideas early in the process get that
feedback early get the hardware out
there in their hands and since I have
your ear and this may be cut out uh I
the the thing I sometimes despise about
different companies and Intel has had
that problem is when you do Market
segmentation where certain features only
exist in certain
certain markets that aren't necessarily
as available as others and and I'm
thinking of things like
the transactional memory I mean it's
gone now maybe it's never coming back
but that was very painful for us when
only certain server CPUs had it and the
people who actually needed to develop
for it
couldn't access it easily on their own
desktops and and that's that's I think
an area where Intel can maybe improve
and not let the market segmentation
Drive these kind of technical issues
that that make it hard for developers
well I look forward to always getting
your feedback in the future right and
you know maybe maybe just one
fun little way to finish our time
together what is this about penguins
there is no deeper
truth behind The Penguin it was
literally I was in Australia
many many years ago
and there was a
fairy penguin they're
they're literally they're they're about
a foot tall and they weigh a pound or
something like that and it was in an
enclosure with a low thing and I tried
to get it to come closer by making like
a fish and it bit my finger and and I
thought that was very cute so when we
were looking for a mask mascot it was
like penguins are kind of cool and
they're like
well known enough that people know what
a penguin is but they're not like a dog
or a cat or something like so common
that that they're not
really noticeable so it turned I it was
funny a lot of people thought that the
penguin especially the Linux kind of
cartoony fat penguin was a really bad
logo because this was
late 90s like Linux was not that
corporate at the time right
so a lot of people felt like having a
cartoonish logo was a bad thing for a
project that wants to appear exactly yes
and and
then the whole.com thing happened and it
turns out that on the web in particular
having a a friendly and like graphically
interesting logo is actually a good
thing and and I'm told that the Linux
logo has actually been used as a as an
example of great logos
in marketing you know great technology
you know an entire open source yeah and
the Pinnacle of branding as well yeah I
know it was it was completely
unintentional and I did I did not design
the logo I just I just gave a high level
explanation of what I wanted and I made
it a kind of competition for who can
come up with the best one and then
others did the graphical part my wife
and I did a cruise to Antarctica and we
saw tens of thousands of penguins so
anyway it's a pretty you know we like
them too yeah no it's a nice it's a nice
animal although the Linux penguin is
kind of an Unholy mix of penguins and
Ducks because Penguins don't actually
have like the orange feet that the Linux
penguin has very good well you know I am
again so honored to have you join us at
Intel Innovation thank you for taking
time for a more in-depth uh interview uh
joining us on stage you know being here
and of course becoming the recipient of
the Intel first ever Intel Innovation
award I couldn't think of somebody you
know more impactful for the evolution of
Technology the development of entirely
new software you know model and
deploying and something that you know
literally has become the operating
system of choice for so many Industries
thank you so much thank you