about a month ago I did a video on this
false system that Michael larab aonics
seems to be absolutely obsessed with I
don't think I seen a single other person
talk about it as much and for as long as
he has outside of the developer of the
project and you know what that's great
it's always nice to have a passion but
we're not talking about Michael larabel
today we are talking about the developer
of the project Kent over Street the
developer of bash
FS sometimes people learn after a
negative encounter sometimes it's the
first one maybe the second maybe the
fifth maybe the 10th but eventually they
learn other times people learn what they
have to say to get through the current
encounter and then don't change anything
that got them there once again lonus
tvol is sick of working with this
project this all started with bcash FS
fixers for 612- rc2 submitted by Kent
over street now to be fair he made a
slight improvement over one of the prior
situations don't submit a giant patch
set during the RC period this is 18
separate patches across
551 lines of change code across 20 files
this is a lot more reasonable than some
of the unruly patch sets from before on
the surface this all looks above board
but lonus toold had a big problem with
something he was doing I'm getting
really fed up here Kent these have
Commit times from last night which makes
me wonder how much testing they got now
to be fair to Kent here the commit
messages are from last night because I
polished up commit messages and
reordered until last night I always push
smaller fixers up front and fixes that
are likely to need rework to the back
the vast majority of those fixes are all
2 weeks
old understandable back to lonus and
before you start whining again about how
you are fixing bugs let remind you about
the build failures you had on big Indian
because your patches had gotten zero
testing outside your tree that was last
week and I'm getting the feeling that
absolutely nothing was learned from The
Experience now to be fair like we saw
the patches weren't actually from last
night what he's referring to here is uh
this interaction right here where
because of a patch that was not sent
Upstream beforehand a patch that was
clearly not at all tested not even a
basic build test they had a broken
version of the Kel in the Upstream konel
I have pulled this referring to the
patch that we are currently looking at
but I searched for a couple of the
commit messages on the list and found
nothing okay I found your poor request
which obviously mentioned the first line
of the commit messages so the only thing
he found is the thing that he's
currently looking at which obviously is
not what he's looking for he's looking
for the commit being sent up to the
colonel beforehand so they can have a
discussion not just sending a patch set
out of nowhere I'm seriously thinking
just stopping p from you because I
simply don't see you improving on your
model if you want to have an
experimental tree you can damn well have
one outside the mainline Kel I've told
you before and nothing seems to really
make you understand I was hoping and
expecting that bcash F Fest being
mainlined would actually help
development it has not you're still
basically the only developer and there's
no real sign that will change to be fair
there are other developers on the
project but those are developers that
are involved in the project outside the
current anyway being involved in the Kel
hasn't really changed anything and you
seem to feel like sending me untested
stuff that nobody else has ever seen the
day before the next RC release is just
fine you're a smart person I feel like
I've given you enough hints why don't
you sit back and think about it and
let's make it clear you have exactly two
choices here Choice number one play
better with others Choice number two
take your toy and go home those are the
choices basically learn to work in the
konel or get out of the kernel and we're
not going to accept your patches any
longer here's the thing bcat Fest might
be a great false system and sometime
down the line might be what destro's
default to but right now that's not the
case it has a niche audience that seems
to really like it but it is a fairly
small and Niche audience
the mainline konel has survived thus far
without B casfs and it's going to
survive into the future without bhfs
removing it whilst it'll be annoying for
the people who use it won't be the end
of the world and you don't get to this
point with lonus with just one mistake
it is a mistake that you make over and
over and over and over again and not
different mistakes right if you make a
mistake you make a different mistake
obviously those are different things to
learn from but it's the refusal to learn
from making the same mistake over and
over again that makes this happen now
let's see Kent's response this bit here
is just the pr bot let's skip that here
it is this first part we already looked
at let's go past that one now referring
to the big Indian part no there simply
aren't that many people running big
Indian I have users building and running
my trees on a daily basis if I push
something broken before I go to bed I
have bug reports waiting for me the next
morning when I wake
up are you I are you are you sure about
that are you sure about this are you
sure there's not a single person
building on a big Indian system that
noticed that it wouldn't build with the
change cuz I think that might be a lie
if it is not a lie what you are saying
is you pushed it up to the colel before
someone had tested the tree which I
don't know if it's better to lie or push
things with zero testing at this point
it's honestly debatable whether the
experimental label should apply I'm
getting bug reports that talk about
production use and working on metadata
dumps where the superlock indicates the
fal system has been in continuous use
for years and many many people talking
about how even at this relatively early
point it doesn't fall over like butter a
Fest does let that sink in
butterfest has been Mainline for years
and it still craps out on people I was
just in a meeting 2 days ago closing
funding and a big reason it was an easy
sell was because they have to run
butterfest in read only mode because
otherwise it craps out so if the
existing process the existing way of
doing things hasn't been able to get
butterfest to a point where people can
rely on it after 10 years perhaps you
and the community don't know quite as
much as you think you do about the
realities of what it takes to ship a
working file system here's the important
thing the goal of the konel processes
isn't to have something completely bug
free if butterfest is buggy I've not
heard anyone besides this developer
complain about butterfest being terrible
but let's just assume that butterfest is
buggy that's fine because they are
following the processes to bring code
into the konel because your project
butterfest any other project in the
konel is not the only project in the
konel lonus is dealing with thousands of
commits every single release if people
were just randomly throwing up code with
no testing no discussions prior to it
being released how do you manage that
the only way you manage this much code
is to have strict processes about
discussions being done beforehand when
you can submit code to Linus's tree what
you have to do beforehand because it
doesn't work otherwise
and if it is true that bcash FS is being
used in production does need update at
this really fast rate that's fine but
that might not be a project that is
currently suitable for the Kel it might
be suitable in a couple of years but it
might be too soon right now I've got a
team lined up and just secured funding
to start paying them and it looks like
I'm about to secure more and the
community is growing I'm reviewing and
taking Patches from more people and
regularly monitoring them on the code
base and on top of all that you shouting
about process Rings pretty Hollow when I
remember the days when you guys were
rewriting core mm code in RC kernels
given where bcash Fest is at the life
cycle of a big code base being
stabilized you should be expecting to
see stuff like that here stuff is
getting found and fixed and then we ship
those fixers so we can find the next
stuff having clearly not taken the
ultimatum as a serious threat lonus also
decides to clap back in reference to
those fixes from ear being over 2 weeks
old with the patches not appearing on
the list that seems entirely irrelevant
apparently they are 2 weeks in your tree
and absolutely nowhere
else this is a problem that a lot of the
projects see whand is a very good
example of this where discussion is
happening but nobody knows the
discussion is happening cuz it happened
at fost them it happened in a matrix
room or an IRC chat and
maybe the discussion happened but nobody
on the actual issue track and nobody in
the centralized location where
discussion should be happening knows any
discussion happened seriously you
completely dodged my actual argument
except for pointing out how we didn't
have processes two decades ago if you
can't actually even face this what's the
point anymore two decades ago you could
get away with just letting people do
things willy-nilly and all patches are
being submitted that are making breaking
changes during an RC it's 2004 we don't
know how to run the konel yet we do now
though we know how to run a really big
project like this and you have to have
strict processes but do not worry it
only keeps getting better here is the
next response from Kent if what you want
is patches appearing on the list I'm not
unwilling to make that change this is
not a matter of you being willing or not
this is a matter of this is the bare
minimum
requirement everybody else can manage to
do it I take issue and indeed even dig
my heels in when the only people asking
for that are only yelling about that and
aren't involved otherwise it's the
colonel lonus is the most involved in
everything he is the bdfl it doesn't
matter if he doesn't write your code
it's the lonus Tool's project but you'll
find that if you talk to me as one human
being to another where we can share and
listen to each other's concerns I'm more
than happy to be reasonable but I'm not
going to just tow the line when it's
just yelling seriously remember this is
like 10 different encounters into him
not listening to reasonable issues and
continuously doing the exact same thing
and now he is trying to play the victim
because the last time you flipped out
over a PO request I spent the rest of
the cycle telling people x y and z are
fixed but you have to build my tree
instead of running a released kernel and
that gets tiresome some of the bugs were
significant and no issues to date have
been found in the stuff you kick back
which tell me my process is just fine it
might be fine for something outside the
kernel but you're not doing something
outside the kernel if you're in the
kernel you have to follow the kernel
processes like imagine right I don't
know what what's what's a what's a good
example here here we go let's say you're
sitting an exam and there are specific
rules about you know being Silent not
having notes using a specific kind of
pencil and you're like hm well I don't
actually care about that process I want
to go and have all of my notes written
out I want to have a laptop here I want
to blast music and I'm going to do it
with a pen like it doesn't matter what
your process
is you're process isn't important here
so let that sink in in order to support
my user base as well as iterate to find
the next set of bugs I have to be able
to ship bug fixes in a timely manner and
if that's going to keep being an issue
perhaps I should be having those
conversations with dist Kels now instead
of later I do like how he's trying to
act as if he's like ext4 or butterfest
you know false systems that are actually
really important where if he did have it
removed from the konel it would be a
giant issue if you want to do that great
because that process seems like it's
going to work better for you this
problem is not unique to be casfs this
is the same problem that every single
other Kel developer has to work within
there is a release model for the Kel
There are rules for the Kel you are not
special you don't get special treatment
because your F system is going to save
everyone face what exactly because at
this point I can't even tell what it is
you want what you're reacting to keeps
shifting that's because you keep doing
the same thing and there are multiple
issues with what you're doing and you
don't change any of them and more than
that I'm done with trying to cater and
I'm done with these long-winded rants
look I quite enjoy the direct approach
but I'm done with having to apologize
for you in order to calm people down
every time this happens if you're so
convinced you know best I invite you to
start writing your own file system go
for it now if he said that to me fair
enough you know what I have not rid my
own file system I'm just a dude on the
internet remember there's a conversation
with lonus tvol you know the guy that
started the Linux Kel the guy that runs
the
project maybe he hasn't ridden his own
file system but he you know was kind of
involved in the whole architecture
around the F system to make your F
system useful just in case you don't
realize how stupid this sounds let's say
you made skateboards during Tony Hawk's
Prime and Tony Hawk was like Hey this
skateboard sucks I don't know anything
about skateboards it sucks for some
reason and you say well you don't know
what you're talking about why did you
try making your own skateboard maybe
isn't made his own skateboard but I
think he knows what a good skateboard is
now lonus remembers that he is the BD
he's kind of in charge of the project so
he's not going to take the bait here I
want you to work with others including
me which means working with the rules
and processes we have in place making
the argument that we didn't have those
rules 20 years ago is just stupid we
have them now because we leared better
you don't get to say look you didn't
have rules 20 years ago so why should I
have them now patches appearing on the
list is not some kind of sufficient
thing it's the absolute minimal
requirement the fact that absolutely
none of the patches in your pro request
showed up when I searched just means
that you clearly didn't even attempt to
have others involved okay I probably
only searched for half of them and then
I gave up in disgust we literally had a
bcash FS build failure last week I
showed up pretty much immediately after
I pulled your tree and because you sent
in the bcash fs fixes with the bug the
day before I cut rc1 we ended up with a
broken rc1 and hey mistakes happen but
when the same absolute disregard for
testing happens the very next weekend do
you really expect me to be happy about
it it's this complete disregard for
anybody else that I find problematic you
don't even try to get other developers
involved or follow Upstream rules and
then you don't seem to even understand
why I complain I'm not interested in
creating another bcash FS I'm
contemplating just removing B cash FS
entirely from the mainline tree because
you show again and again that you have
no interest in trying to make Mainline
work you can do it out of Mainline you
did it for a decade and that didn't
cause problems I thought it would be
better if it finally got mainlined but
by all your actions you seem to really
want to just play in your own sandbox
and not involve anybody else so if this
is just your project and nobody else is
expected to participate and you don't
care about the fact that you break the
mainline build why the hell did you want
to be in the mainline tree in the first
place and you know what that is honestly
a really really good question don't
worry Kent has more to say this has to
work both ways because when I explain my
reasoning and processes and it's ignored
and the same basic stuff is repeatedly
yelled back I'm just going to tune it
out I'm more than happy to work with
people but that's got to be a
conversation and one based on mutual
respect it actually doesn't have to be
that because you are not the special
contributor that everyone needs to
appease to make the konel work if you
don't have the basic respect to follow
the kernel
processes why would anybody ever listen
to what you're saying if you want to
change the kernel processes you don't
change it by just breaking the rules you
change it by opening up that discussion
and laying out the changes you want to
see happen if you just break the
rules you're just breaking the rules now
referring to the point about the colonel
not having processes 20 years ago that
wasn't my argument my point was that a
code base at an earlier phase of
development that hasn't had as long to
stabilize is inherently going to be more
in flux early in development fixing bugs
is going to be a higher priority
relatively speaking versus avoiding
regressions sometimes the important
thing is to make forward progress
iterate and ship and get feedback from
users I think the way you guys were
doing development 20 years ago was
entirely appropriate at the time and
that's what I need to be doing now I
need to be less conservative than the
colonel as a whole then why are you m
inlined into the
kernel why those fixes were all pretty
basic and broadly speaking I know what
everyone else who's been working on
bashfest is doing and what they're
working on it's not a matter of you
knowing what they're working
on sure you know what they're working on
but the colel Upstream has no idea what
they're working on I do apologize for
the build failure and I'll get the
automated multi-architecture build
testing that needed to happen anyways
but here we go you got to get a jab in
somewhere I also remind you that I'm one
of the few people who's actually been
pushing for more and better automated
testing really really I now have
infrastructure for the community that
anyone can use just ask me for an
account and that's been another solo
effort because so few people are even
interested so the fact that this even
came up great on me this is a problem
with a technical solution and instead
we're all just
arguing he really really loves playing
the victim in response to that comment
there was a reply from an xfs developer
who was very bothered by the fact that
he was saying that nobody else does
testing like bcash Fest does who does
have automated testing and also does
make the testing available for others
so I don't know beest has got to be
special even in ways which are just
completely untrue now referring to
people getting involved in bcash Fest
here's what Kent says lanus just because
you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't
exist I spend a significant fraction of
my day on ISC and the phone with both
users and other developers no one cares
because that's happening outside the
kernel like if you spend time on things
outside the kernel it's fine but like
we're talking about what's happening in
the konel and Upstream rules has always
been a fairly ad hoc thing which even
you barely seem to be able to spell out
he spelled it out like 10 times already
it's taken forever to get to yes you do
want patches on the list that's because
it is such a basic
requirement that there should be no
reason to spell it out like oh I didn't
know you wanted us using git I didn't
know you wanted the code written in
C yeah yeah that's the project like
you're laying out the minimum
requirements not even the process rules
just the bare minimum requirements of
the way things are done here and you
seem to have some feeling that the
volume of fixes is an issue for you but
God only knows if that's more than a
hazy feeling for
you I don't know how anybody works with
this person this might be one of the
most insufferable developers I've seen
in the entire Foss world he is a really
talented developer
but oh my God is he annoying the reason
he has an issue with you submitting
giant unruly patches during the RC is
because you're not the only developer on
the project if everybody did that the
colonel would never release now here's
the reason why he wanted to be mainlined
because I want Linux to have a file
system we can all be proud of the users
can rely on that has a level of
robustness and polish that we can all
aspire to that needs to break kernel
processes at every possible moment to
submit absolutely crucial patches a day
otherwise people might lose their
data
right I definitely buy that now I know
there is this meme that o lonus is so
mean lonus is hard to work with lius is
a saint I don't know how you deal with
someone like this and don't just say
okay I'm just done with this
conversation I don't even want to hear
your input anymore this is gone or I'm
going to go talk to other people
involved in maintainership and we're
going to decide if this is gone I'm not
listening to you anymore I have no idea
how that hasn't happened already and I
really do wonder how many more times
this needs needs to happen for it to
actually be pulled but you know what I
kind of don't want it to be pulled
because oh my God this is a gold mine of
conversations every single time there is
a patch set it is a mess it is a
disaster and it seems like everybody is
starting to hate this person but let me
know your thoughts down below obviously
please don't go and harass Kent over
Street there's like there's no point
doing that don't that's stupid leave
your stupid comments in the comment
section down below or put them on
Twitter I guess I don't know anyway if
you like the video go like the video and
if you really like the video and you
want to become one of these amazing
people over here check out the patreon
scribes baray Linked In the description
down below that's going to be it for me
and what would you have done in this
situation
[Music]
something like this