we are in the midst of a re-enchantment
of the world everyone has some kind of
skill whether they know it or not in
this domain magic is real for the magic
to work you have to believe that it's
going to work there's some form of deep
interconnectedness among all things
that's simply part of the fabric of
reality it transcends space and time the
fact that we're aware is a very deep
mystery it's still not solved there's
tons of data saying that these psychic
effects really are real Galileo like
others are very well aware that anything
having to do with magic is okay with in
the church but it is not okay outside
it's demonic there's danger in anything
especially when we're dealing with
getting a better sense of who and what
you are what you might be capable of you
can get pulled into a bad place pretty
quickly you just end up going completely
psychotic you go crazy you don't gain
power without having something
challenging yourself black magic is
considered to be overriding somebody
else's free will if you don't have the
permission to do it you're asking for
trouble the point of Enchantment magic
is that you're instantiating a desire an
intention you're taking it out of your
mind and putting it out into the world
the easiest practice that kind of
attracts people now
is I
proposed uh as part of my work to start
looking at the mind machine interaction
as a as an actual thing like if somebody
was very anxious the machine seems to
fail and a lot of people are familiar
with this for something as simple as uh
I really really need to get a photocopy
copy right now and somehow that's the
time when I press the button on the
photocopy machine that it
breaks well enough people are familiar
with with
this that I figured okay there's there's
like a face validity to the idea that if
you're really anxious that the machine
is not going to obey you very well so I
spent some time as part of my business
travel to visit the various Laboratories
in the United States where they were
doing mind matter interaction studies
and spoke to the researchers and one of
them very kindly loaned to me one of the
devices they were using for testing my
matter
interaction and so I brought it back to
the labs and I was using myself as a
subject and my colleagues and I
convinced myself after a while there
really is a direct mind matter
interaction that you can get you can
measure with a
machine and so this became relevant
because now was saying that well maybe
the this folklore that develops about
people interacting with machines it's
actually a real thing it's not it's not
some mundane explanation but there's
something about human anxiety or human
intention that will cause a machine to
break and so that got me really
interested so I went to I went to a
conference I presented this and later
was uh invited by people working on at
the time a classified program in the in
the United States that was using psychic
phenomena for
Espionage uh today it's known as the
Stargate program it was uh it was a
program for 20 years using remote
viewing which is the same as
Clairvoyance as a way of getting
information that would be useful for
Espionage so there were rumors at the
time that maybe something like this was
happening but there were rumors well now
I learned that it was an actually real a
real thing and so spent a year on that
program as a visiting scientist and that
completely blew my mind because it was
no longer seeing that like my seeing
that I could see these results in the
lab but finding that this was taken very
very seriously at the highest levels of
government because it was useful not
just a like a
minor minor anomalous glitch that you
could find scientifically but actually
pragmatically useful so I determined
that that point that if it was possible
to continue a career as a scientist to
try to understand these phenomena and
look into them in
detail that that's what I wanted to do
so I somehow figured out a way of doing
that that's what I've been doing for 40
years now so what is the connection to
Magic the connection is I I've I've
written a number of books and the first
one was all about the nature of the data
and how we know that these are real
effects the second one was about the
physics underneath it why why it doesn't
violate anything that we know about
physics the third was about the yoga
traditions and how within classical yoga
that these phenomena known as the cities
in yogic terms are very real and and
have been known for thousands of years
the fourth book called real magic was
then looking at the same thing from the
point of view of Western
esotericism because yoga is like Eastern
esotericism so this was now looking at
from the Western and I it suddenly
realized or occurred to me that what we
would call the cities and from a West
from an Eastern perspective we call
Magic in the west so that was the
connection and I I'm sad to say that up
until that time I don't think I would
have ever mentioned the word magic and
psychic phenomena in the same breath
because it seems like they're really far
apart but actually they are
identical than cities magic and and
psychic effects are all exactly the same
thing just shaped by language and
culture so that that's why I got into
magic because I realized I've been kind
of doing studies on Magic without
thinking of it in those terms for a very
long time so that was a long-winded
answer no it's perfect I think it's
thank you so much for describing it
because I think it elucidates such
Clarity on just like the like the the
the nature of how it's it's hidden in
plain it in some ways um you research
three different types of magical
practice mainly is what I've gathered um
and each of them actually has like a
scientific counterpart to it as
well right so the three
classes I call
enchantment which we would call mind
matter
interaction uh the second is divination
which which would be
Clairvoyance and the third is theor
which is a a a mashup of of words in
Latin and Greek that basically say God
work or Divine work and that that is
referring to the area of survival
evidence things like
mediumship so it's true that each one of
these three major classes have some
subclasses within them but all of them
have been studied within
parapsychology mostly in laboratory
studies so we know that all of them have
an actual empirical basis to them all of
them are real
what we see in the laboratory is quite
weak in terms of the magnitude unless
you're very lucky and you happen to have
a very talented person that you're
working with but for most average people
the the effects are pretty weak but real
can you describe some of the more
fascinating experiments um across each
of these different fields that you've
experienced witness come across so let's
take an example of of divination so uh
one form of divination is precognition
and there are several different classes
there there's conscious precognition
which is somewhat rare there's also
unconscious precognition which occurs in
dreams and it occurs as a result that
you can feel something in your body that
is giving you a clue about something
that is about to
unfold so the typical example there is
that you you've driven to work a million
times and using the same road and you
know that there's a certain place where
you're driving where you have a
stoplight traffic
light and so you're approaching the
traffic like this day and you get a a
feeling a bad feeling about that
particular traffic light maybe you even
get that early in the morning you start
thinking about it and thinking there's
something wrong with that so you're
approaching it and the light is green
and so you would normally start speeding
up a little bit to make sure you get
through the intersection but today
something is wrong so you start slowing
down and the closer and closer you get
to the green light the more you slow
down which is confusing people behind
you because they don't know what's going
on and so when you actually approach the
intersection you're almost stopped at
that point and suddenly out of
apparently nowhere a truck barrels
through their red light and through the
intersection and would have hit you
broadside if you had not been slowing
down so I call this a presentiment
because it's not precognized it's not
knowing what's about to happen it's
feeling it somehow something is you just
have a feeling something's not right so
there are many many variations on this
story so one that that gave me an idea
of how to do an experiment was that uh I
was I working with a colleague who liked
to go hunting so on the weekend like he
was preparing the next weekend to go
hunting uh with his buddies and they
have rifles and they have pistols and he
has a a six shot double-action revolver
that he takes so he's cleaning the whole
thing he takes all the bullets out uh
and he cleans it all up and now he's
putting the bullets back into the
cylinders it even though it's a six-
shot
revolver uh he put only puts five
bullets in there so the hammer will be
over the empty
chamber so he's putting in bullets one
two 3 four and then he picks up the
fifth bullet and he gets that bad
feeling something about that bullet is
not right so he sets it aside so now you
have two empty chambers you have the the
hammer over six and you have the empty
one over five a double action revolver
you pull it and the it pulls the hammer
back it rotates the cylinder and then it
hits on the next CH chamber which is
empty now
so they all go hunting uh and and with
his friends and then they come back
after a day of hunting and they do what
you should not do if you have a bunch of
guns around they start drinking so a
fight breaks out between two of his
buddies and he sees that one of them
picks up his revolver and pointing it
directly in the face of the of another
guy that he's been arguing with and he's
pulling the trigger well you can see
what's about to happen here this is not
good so he intervenes he steps between
the two but too late the hammer had been
all the way pulled back and went rather
than bang shooting him in the face click
into the fifth chamber which is with the
bullet that he had taken out so he he
said he felt at that moment that
something about that moment of horror
because he didn't even remember that he
took the bullet out it saved his life
because if that bullet was in there it
would have killed him
so so how do we simulate this in a
laboratory without putting people in
actual danger we sit somebody down in
front of a computer we wire them up to
look at their heart rate and their skin
conductance and other unconscious
physiological
measures and then uh they they press a
button and the screen is blank for 5
seconds and then a picture comes up to
the very emotional or very
calm and then that saves for 3 seconds
and then it goes away for 30 seconds and
then they get a chance to do this again
they might do 30 or 40 of these trials
each time the picture is selected from a
large pool of pictures that may be calm
or
emotional and more importantly the the
selection process is done after that
5-second waiting period so there's no
picture yet it's selected by using a
true random process right before it's
shown so it it really is in the future
at that point and the hypothesis is that
if there's some element of your
unconscious that can feel what is about
to happen well maybe your heart rate
would speed up or maybe your skin
conductance would change because you're
sweating a little bit more so we did
that experiment and it worked amazingly
well we used like really Calm pictures
really emotional pictures but it worked
really really well so my colleagues
started to replicate it and as that was
now about 20 years ago so we have
something like four dozen replications
of this experiment for multiple labs
around the world and it's very clear
that this is a real
effect which kind of makes sense I mean
all of our experiments are based on what
people report in the real world not just
once but often times many times so we
can see this now in the laboratory and
we can exclude all of the the mundane
explanations like maybe it was
peripheral vision or you heard something
or all of those things can be
excluded so this is an example then of
how we know that that aspect of
divination this is in in a case of your
body telling you something which is why
you should pay attention to gut feelings
you know something funny in your viscera
or in your heartbeat if you can feel
that take that as a clue that's it's
telling you something
so that's an example of an experiment in
divination uh and there are many others
as well I mean there in each one of
these classes there's probably half a
dozen different experiments which are
useful because you can then uh say well
if it's true say in my unconscious is is
it also true in my conscious when I'm
conscious like I'm making decisions well
it turns out yes is it also true in
brain activity yes you know you can go
through the sequence and continually get
confirmations by looking at the same
phenomena in different ways and that
gives you more and more confidence that
it's a real thing and so as again I just
mentioned one experiment because it's it
has a dramatic story associated with it
but it could have settle a whole bunch
of others yeah it's interesting I also
it's I think everyone can relate to
those few moments that we have where we
kind of just that gut feeling where
something's kind of off and you just
don't know why and then later down the
track it kind of turns into like Ah
that's why that happened like your mate
story especially with the gun is kind of
is is quite quite the harrowing
one of the things I wanted to just
double click on for just a sec there is
um you talk about um precognition but
then you use the word pre sentiment and
I couldn't help but notice that um yeah
because cognition sounds very in the
mind but sentiment is feels more like a
felt sense um and I think it's
interesting because when I lean into
even like I do some work with uh I'm not
sure if you ever heard of Dr Jose Sila
and um his his work towards leading
people through developing like an
intuitive sense and stuff like that and
one of his one of his trainings is very
like developing the visual Acumen for
one person to be able to visualize and
it never really worked that well for me
but I could really have a felt sense in
my body of what I was trying to
visualize and so I just sort of started
running with that but I think everybody
has a I don't know I'd love to get your
thoughts having researched this do you
think different people have different
like dominant almost internal senses
does that make sense the question that
I'm asking oh yeah well people are
different uh it's like the rule number
one when you're learning about
psychology yeah there's a lot of O
overlap and similarities which is why
we're able to talk to each other and
sort of know what's going on with
somebody else but people are
fundamentally different we have we have
different talents and different
predilections different personalities
different bodies different
genetics fortunately they're similar
enough that that we can get along but
when you get down to Brass tax
especially for something that could be
considered a subtle form of perception
or subtle form of of in internal
Consciousness there's quite a range uh
of abilities and and
preferences so it is not surprising at
all that some people could be extremely
good at divination and not good at at
enchantment at all and vice versa and
there are people who are really really
good at uh gaining information from what
it seems to be entities that are no
longer living or not or maybe we never
human so that's I'm talking here about
the this the third category of
theery so in my case for example uh I i'
have never encountered anything that I
would consider to be a spirit or even
any form of survival evidence but they
have friends who do like mediums who see
dead people constantly everywhere which
I think would be dis disturbing but
somehow they they deal with it um so
yeah so I'm not I'm not surprised that
uh that people will have different
talents and different abilities with
these these kinds of not really
exceptional abilities because everyone
has something everyone has some kind of
skill whether they know it or not in
this domain and I think that it is not
only humans that had these abilities but
it's any form of
sentience so probably all the way down
to bacteria there there what we think of
as Consciousness in plants or in animals
and so on be would probably be quite
different than what we think of as as
our selfawareness but they have some
kind of
awareness and I think then that the the
experiences that we're talking about
whether it's in terms of magic or
psychic uh it's simply part of the
fabric of reality it's not something
that is Anointed upon somebody the
talent might be but the the phenomenon
itself is suggesting that there's some
form of deep
interconnectedness among all things
that's simply part of the fabric of
reality and that it transcends what we
think of as space and time so by when I
say deep interconnectedness I'm talking
about transcending space and time
because that's that's the essence of
psychic and mystical experience and it
also plays an important role within
magical practice y inspired so this
conversation with Dean is so interesting
about magic and the place in the world
and we're going to dive even deeper
about how you can start to wield some
really cool practical ways to weave some
of this stuff into your own life just
before we get there I want to take a
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without too much further Ado back to
Dean it's really interesting cuz you've
been in this space for well over 30
years over almost 40 it's you've
probably watched people's receptivity to
well you know I'm sure now we're having
conversations like this podcasts like
this Consciousness is a common
conversation um or becoming more and
more common I should say um
but rewinding back 30 years ago I'm
imagining it probably wasn't um as open
a conversation as we're having Heroes on
today's podcast um have you
noticed yeah have you noticed a shift in
Consciousness that's that that's been
going on um to to to put it a bit broad
brush as a as a conversation but then
also is that making more and more of
these abilities come online for people
because just like we discussed I think
the reason I asked the question
previously was to just I think some
people might be switch like turned off
because they're expecting it a certain
to to look and behave a certain ways as
because they see the stereotypical kind
of Hollywood like oh yeah I saw
something and precognized it and yet you
know it might not be show up that way
specifically for them and as you're
watching Consciousness evolve are more
and more extra sensory abilities coming
online in your opinion is there a
correlation between the
two I believe there is yes uh it is it
is partially that the as you were
mentioning that 30 years ago there were
very few conferences on consciousness of
any type uh there were philosophers
interested in Consciousness there always
have been the Mind Body Issue um but
most scientists would have had no
interest in Consciousness at all with
the one exception being
anesthesiologists because their job is
to turn it off other than that
neuroscientists had no interest
psychologists had no interest and the
other more hard disciplines so-called
hard disciplines they had no interest at
all like it wasn't even part of the
discipline and that so they' never even
think about
it and even among the lay public uh the
idea that there was something that could
be studied was also quite foreign I
remember talking to an uncle many many
years ago and saying that this was I was
about to go to Princeton University to
to study Consciousness and he didn't it
took him a while to figure out what I
meant like I'm not a philosopher I'm a
scientist so I well what do you what do
you mean that you're studying
Consciousness what does it even
mean well it I had to actually struggle
at the time to figure out how to
describe to him that this was actually a
thing like the fact that we're aware is
a very deep mystery it's still not
solved we don't know how that is
so so this has been it's really
dramatically changed in the last 30
years so now like every single month
there's at least one conscious one
conference that is focused on
Consciousness on some aspect of one or
the
other that it's almost overwhelming now
because people will say oh are you going
to this the science and Consciousness
conference and my response that was well
what are what are you talking about
which one I mean literally everywhere I
just got back from
it well I mean now that the mo most of
the time they're also online so I'm like
the end of the month I'm in one in
actually coming up soon I probably I
can't even keep them
straight there's one
on Buddhism and Consciousness which
which I've been invited to and there
there's ones in science and
Consciousness is just like overwhelming
now suddenly the the uh the drawbridge
has been raised and the water's coming
through or something it there's a big
change so how does that affect the
actual phenomena that people have I
think it the experiences are probably
the same as they've always been the
difference is that people are more
willing to talk about it so the the
taboo that has prevented people from
taking it seriously at least in public
like taboo all about public versus
private so in public now it is becoming
more and more acceptable not only for
Lay people but for scientists to talk
about this I mean this these are big
science conferences now talking about
the nature of
Consciousness and that has also changed
the nature of the of the discussion
because when when a person goes through
a scientific career this is still pretty
much the case but it is changing you go
through a scientific career
you are never taught or never even
mentioned to you that Science is based
on a set of assumptions and so the
assumptions that we're not taught that
that is actually
philosophy is that we live in a world
made of matter and energy that's the
Assumption it's materialism that's what
a philosopher would call it so if we
live in in a worldview that assumes that
everything is made out of matter and
energy that allows certain things to
exist and other things not to exist and
and the the key is that Consciousness is
very very difficult to account for if
you imagine that everything is material
because material is like looking at the
world from the
outside and and Consciousness is somehow
looking at it from the inside so to to
clarify the so-called hard problem in
Consciousness is that that's we have
experiences so you can watch somebody
from the out side take a bite out of a
lemon and we can actually trace it now
all the way down to the individual
neurons and the way the brain is working
and all the all the rest of it but that
doesn't tell us anything about what it's
like to bite into a lemon the experience
of it so this is the the what's called
qualia is this internal sense of what
it's like to have an experience and the
phrase is like what it's like what it's
like to have the experience well we
don't know how to account for that from
pure material so we know a lot about the
way the brain works we know that there
are correlates between internal
experience and the brain activity and
all
that but now we're finding that that
thought leaders and physics and the
neurosciences and psychology are
beginning to recognize that maybe one of
the reasons why it's been so difficult
to understand this is because we're
asking the wrong question a philosopher
would say it's a category mistake you're
you're ask you're assuming something
which is a mistake like asking what is
the square root of an
orange well that question doesn't make
any sense it's like that's why it's a
category mistake so if somebody said
well what is the brain activity that's
giving rise to Consciousness that's like
the square root of an orange it doesn't
make any sense so this is why you're
finding more and more uh scientists who
are saying well maybe we were asking the
wrong question maybe it's not that
Consciousness arises out of the brain
maybe the brain arises out of
Consciousness or something else and so
this is what philosophers have been
talking about forever and it it says
well where are maybe some of our
assumptions that science has been based
on are not correct and by the way
anytime you have a set of assumptions
not all of them are 100% correct some of
them are going to be wrong some are
probably slightly wrong some are really
wrong so I think what's happening now is
we're seeing that some of the
assumptions that has driven in science
to this point are simply wrong not to a
minor degree but to a huge degree so
that the push back from that that I I
hear often not so much anymore but I
used to hear it a lot is that that can't
possibly be right because otherwise we
have to throw away all of our textbooks
and start over again that's a fear and
so I said no no no you you've
misunderstood it's not that materialism
as a Doctrine is wrong it's a special
case
it is extremely effective for certain
kinds of things in the world just like
classical mechanics is really really
good except in the space of large
gravity and large spaces and so on then
you need relativity or in the space of
the extremely small where you need
quantum mechanics so we're not throwing
away classical physics it works got us
to the moon and back it's just not good
enough so materialism as a Doctrine is
not good enough to be more to be the
kind of comprehensive way of
understanding reality that is necessary
for us to begin to understand
Consciousness and now here's the the the
rub the rub is the moment you step away
from materialism and you entertain more
broader ways of understanding
reality suddenly Consciousness is
included and psychic mystical and
magical experiences are also included
because if Consciousness actually is a
key component of the way that reality
works works then psychic phenomena would
would work because it's going to be
primary before physics and magical
phenomena for the same reason and
mystical experience which is the
perception of all there is so that
that's why I think the the curve that
we're on if we look at this in terms of
uh the increase in the in various forms
of Consciousness in science and outside
of science we're on an exponential rise
and we're beyond the knee of the curve
at this point that means that the that
the exponential part is going almost
straight up and we're in the midst of
that right now and and so the one of the
reasons why I was motivated to write
another book after real magic is because
I wrote real magic five years ago this
is 2024 that I'm speaking so I wrote
that five years ago and from then just
till now from five years huge changes in
in how this these topics are being
addressed that means you really are on
an almost completely vertical rise in
terms of interest and I figured well I
better write about this now because we
wait another 5 years it's hard to
predict where we're going to be hi there
guys I wanted to take a quick moment
just to introduce you to my onetoone
coaching it's something that I deeply
love doing as you can tell conscious
conversation is such a massive part of
my life and having one toone deep
meaningful conversations with people
where I get to show up as your brother
or as the coach or as your Mentor has
been such a gift for me personally and a
gift for lots of the people that I have
supported on the Journey of living a
more spiritually empowered spiritually
powered spiritually aligned life you
don't have to take my word for it here's
some examples of people all around the
world that have experienced profound
Transformations through this coaching
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a few sessions he got to a depth that
I'd only experience before working with
certain medicines he's gone through a
lot of the struggles that you're
probably facing and amit's been a really
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in control of myself I'm kinder to
myself I actually have that vision and a
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he was easy to talk to which made me
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all righty so hopefully that's inspiring
your Evolution onwards and upwards and
if you are so inspired to evolve you can
book in a onetoone call with me directly
at www.
am.
coachlife and guys if I can say so
myself I do think this is something
quite special most people that I see
building things online don't really work
with people this deeply this intimately
one onone as things start to grow just
because it is so time intensive and yet
I'm so deeply passionate about the
transformation that comes from one toone
coaching that just isn't available
anywhere else it would be my absolute
honor and a pleasure to support your
spiritual awakening your spiritual path
your spiritual unfoldment it is my
life's work I look forward to seeing you
in the call back to today's podcast it's
super inspiring and that's probably a
question worth asking in terms of where
you do think we're going to be 5 years
from now but just before we get there
there was something well what you've
just alluded to it's unpacking something
really deep in my mind because so much
of science the way well the way I view
science back background of an engineer
is you know you've got math builds uh
and which is built upon like physics
builds upon that and then you've got
chemistry building upon your physics
then you've got biology building upon
your chem but then just then you
underpinned math is measuring matter and
I was like oh yeah matter oh materialism
oh that's a that's a philosophy in a
school of thought that mainstream
science is built upon and so I can see
the latter in hierarchy that was very
clarifying for me and you said
Consciousness is primary can you just
clarify what the latter would look like
on how these different fields build upon
each other over here can is that
possible or is it not as clear as a
letter yeah yeah it's the the Pyramid of
knowledge the way we think of it from a
disciplinary perspective is the bottom
the bottom slice of that pyramid is
physics you could add mathematics in
there too but it's mainly it's physics
the discipline of physics and then
chemistry and then biology and then
psychology and so on so the the the
pyramid is building up to at the very
top of that pyramid is the assumption
that somehow consciousness emerges out
of all of this
somehow so that's materialism the and
materialism really doesn't quite know
where Consciousness should go in this
pyramid it sticks it at the top because
we don't know where else to put it so
the only change that happens is that we
take Consciousness and we put it below
physics it's a new slice below physics
and now the question is well how do you
get the physical world emerging out of
something as kind of non-physical
abstract as consciousness well that's
what philosophers have been discussing
for thousands of years it's the the
philosophical ideas like idealism and
dual aspect monism and panchis and
there's a whole bunch of of words like
that and these have been pretty
welldeveloped and more
importantly major neuroscientists and
physicists and others as I've mentioned
are now using those
words right because they recognize we
need something more comprehensive well
what do we do with it well it's like
they suddenly discovered that there's
philosophy of
science and
so the this issue would have been solved
many many years ago if every scientist
was taught oh by the way there's a
philosophy of science you're being
taught a certain worldview there are
other worldviews they're not going to
Discount what you're doing but it's more
comprehensive ways of thinking about the
nature of reality with a Big R there is
something more because most of us have
lived in in the developed countries at
least within a certain set of
philosophical assumptions which assumes
that materialism is the way things are
soon like materialism equals reality
with a big
r that is this is not the case reality
is much much bigger than simply
materialism it's something more and and
we now we're kind of forced to face that
through what we're seeing is a a
Renaissance almost or a a Resurgence of
Interest in the nature of Consciousness
and its role in the physical world it's
in there somehow just to take a sort of
sideways
step this has been suppressed for like
cuz this is now we're having more and
more conversations like this but witches
were burned at the stake um magic
doesn't have a
very positive reception if you look back
through history um but then also reading
your book was quite interesting because
there are people
well you look at something like certain
churches and certain institutions some
people are allowed to do magic and the
rest are forbidden from it like it's can
you shine a light on some of the more
interesting parts of history and why
magic in your opinion has been
suppressed yeah so sociologists call of
History will call it the
disenchantment of the world and we are
currently in the re-enchantment of the
world so the disenchantment happen and
uh at least a case can be made and I
think this is probably true that the uh
the Orthodox Churches have always
believed in
supernaturalism which you can say is
almost equivalent to the to Divine
Concepts it's a in within religion
there's the concept of something bigger
than us God or some other name like that
which requires the Divine because it's
invisible it's omnipotent it has you
know has all of these qualities of
superheroes
essentially uh and so uh church is very
powerful because if you go back far
enough in time nobody really understood
how anything worked and so life is
uncertain and people would say Well
there must be a reason why this person
got sick or why that entire town got
wiped out by some disease that they
didn't even know what it was so religion
naturally would arise when people don't
have another explanation for something
and because of the uncertainty of life
and death
and so uh as the Catholic church in
particular became more and more
powerful uh it found that uh it's its
ability to
control and you see this again and again
any any kind of large
organizational thing especially one that
is has some control over
people that its ability to control them
it depends on their assuming that you
actually are in touch with God right you
in touch with the Divine you have a a
direct connection somehow to the Divine
so if somebody comes along and starts
demonstrating something which we might
call Magic like a a a witch doctor or a
Seer or somebody who has they can start
attracting people away from the power of
the church that's why witch burning
began because they were threats and the
other reason is that the so-called
pagans and Heretics who were not part
not within the church at the time
uh we're also seen as threats especially
like the at the time think of The Druids
up in the Celtic World well they had
very magical society and they had their
own beliefs well that's that's not good
that's taboo that's taking away our our
power and so the acquisition was created
and witch burning and all of that around
the same time or going back now about
500 years around the same time was the
beginning of what we would think of as
science but the fledgling scientists of
the
day had to be very very careful because
they saw that their their own people
were getting burnt at the stake like
like Bruno and others because they were
challenging the doctrine that the church
said this is the way things are you
weren't allowed to to challenge it so
one of the characters here that that's
important then in this history is
Galileo because Galileo like others were
very well aware that the church said
anything having to do with the human
spirit is in our domain you may not at a
threat of death question it so Galileo
made a strategic decision essentially
and a and a article he wrote a famous
article called the
essayer in which he said uh this this
new science that we're developing which
is based on empiricism where we test
things and then we get kind of result
and that we use mathematics to describe
it this is only about the objective
world it's about things that we can
measure objectively and it has nothing
to do with what he called secondary
properties which had to do with the mind
with Consciousness with spirit with
religious ideas and so on he made that
separation very clear that allowed
science to progress and and he got away
with the church said okay you could have
that but we still have anything to do
with the
spirit so you now have pressure from the
church going back hundreds of years
saying this is our domain
anything having to do with magic is okay
within the church but it is not okay
outside is demonic outside and it's
specified in the catechism that is the
way things
are among science uh scientists said the
only thing science can do is look at the
the objective world has nothing to do
with anything else this is one of the
reasons by the way that even as as early
as maybe a hundred years ago that within
psychology which is the study of the
Mind the notion that Consciousness
existed was taboo there is no
consciousness this is why people like
behaviorism became very popular in
Psychology that the only thing that you
can say about psychology is observe
Behavior because that's a straight line
all the way back to Galileo saying if if
we want to do this as science we could
only look at observed behavior and have
nothing to do with what's going on on
the inside that's that's what Psychology
was so you have pressure from science
don't look at that you have pressure
from the church don't look at that and
the the the effect especially on the
academic world was really really
powerful and you see it echoed all the
way down to the present day that if
you're an academic and you want to get
tenure you don't talk about these things
in public because you you won't get
tenure and you'll be pushed out of the
system and this has been going on for
many many
generations and so the only thing that a
student will hear in most universities
is these things like psychic stuff and
magical stuff it's really really
interesting from a psychological
perspective why why do people believe in
that stuff but it's certainly not real
like there are a lot of other
explanations
psychological deficits and so on but
it's not
real this is still the prevailing
opinion it's going to change it is
already changing because the as I said
Consciousness is pushing it hard and
anyway the the data is already there
there's tons of data saying that no
these psychic effects really are real
and some of the magical effects are real
too but there kind of the same thing so
that will change but it CH it'll change
a lot quicker if during a scientific
career students are taught that you're
working within a set of assumptions and
some of them are wrong and the ones we
think are wrong have to do with
Consciousness that completely changes
the the nature of the game it well also
change to the taboo and as I said there
are now a growing number of historians
and religious Scholars and sociologists
who are saying we are in the midst of a
re-enchantment of the world and so the
reason why this one of the reasons why
this is so important something feels
like it's left out well what what is
it one way to answer that is that the
scientific worldview is a is a worldview
of nihilism that's a philosophy that
nothing matters there is literally no
meaning or purpose to anything where
does that come about it comes about
because of the of the nature of
materialism all there is is material
you're a hunk of material when you die
that's the end of the story there's
nothing left because there is no you and
there's no purpose right it's all just
matter tunks of matter that somehow
randomly everything happens so our
internal sense says that that can't
possibly be the case
like humans we eat meaning we need
meaning in the same way that we eat food
you you can't exist without some purpose
and meaning so you step back and you say
I'm now an academic psychologist I would
say well that's that's just like a
that's a problem it's a Frailty of what
it means to be
human this this new version that of of
reality that we're beginning to to see
develop now is saying that's probably
not the case it looks like meaning is
somehow also inherently wrapped into
reality it may not be meaning is in the
same sense as uh I I have a need for
something so I'm I'm going to attribute
meaning to it maybe more abstract than
that but nevertheless it is as though
mind and matter and meaning are threads
that weave together in a way that we
that create a tapestry that is reality
with the capital r so that that's how
the this that's one of the reasons why
why I think people feel that something
is missing because it actually is and it
was a matter of a mistake in the
philosophy that at least Western
Civilization had
adopted when you look back do you think
there's been
um like is there is there something that
you've got a bit of nostalgia for that
you think you might that might have been
like is there a Nostalgia for what may
have been lost through the ages of
having
suppressed these studies uh and burning
is at the stake and such things and you
know relegating magic to the into the
hands of a select few cuz if this had
been I don't want to use the word
enshrined but let's just use the word
enshrined for a second enshrined as
science has been enshrined thus far uh
or materialist science has been um shrin
thus far the amount of development and
the sort of studies in the space would
have filled out the the the the colors
between the lines in such a richer
degree to somewhat is there some sort of
um yeah how do you feel about
that that is that's the real question
that's the key question like why did we
develop in this direction as opposed to
something almost like a Utopia where
everybody gets along and everybody is
fine and has very strong abilities of
this type and there certainly are
legends like that right we have folklore
Legends of lamura and Atlantis and
things like that where everybody was was
young and beautiful and had probably
were were perfectly fine people and yet
they went away
well I don't know if those stories are
true or not I mean there there's
increasing evidence that even our ideas
about how long some kind of civilization
has been around those are
probably way
too uh conservative that that maybe we
we've been we've had multiple very
Advanced civilization for a very long
time
maybe so what what happened
then well one of the things that
happened is that we're besides having
some awareness and Consciousness and so
on we're social animals and we're highly
aggressive we're we're
primates we are very clever very
aggressive primates that is probably why
we have survived because we're being
part of the aggression part of the
cleverness means we're resilient and so
if the the weather changes the climate
changes things happen asteroid hits the
Earth who knows only things that are
very resilient are going to survive it's
like us and cockroaches and that's it
because the dinosaurs were wiped out but
we're still here so you you then look at
what else does an organism need it needs
to be able to survive and so we we put a
very high premium on maintaining the
both the resilience and the aggression
and even a pretty broad range of what
it's like to be human so we have some
humans who are autistic some that are
that are psychotic I mean there's the
the range probably is not a mistake you
have people who are on the edge of
Madness who are Al also the ones who are
known for being highly creative right
like in the Arts um we have people who
are autistic who maybe uh have abilities
that uh so-called neurotypical people
don't have they call it lightning
calculation and having memories that
that are like perfect memories of
everything well a quote normal person
can't do that we don't have that ability
but they do well in some respect that's
pretty good because until we had
computers he needed somebody to remember
everything and so they would do it and
likewise in in more indigenous cultures
you'd have Shaman who were the psychics
they right they're the they're The
Magicians they were able to do things
but those people when they're really
really good usually can't take care of
themselves very well right they they're
not going to have an ordinary job they
can't do that stuff they need the
community to take care of
them because they're valuable well we
don't have those jobs anymore I mean
where do you look up a Job saying I want
a job as a
shaman maybe in California here and
there you find a job like that but in
most places now you don't find jobs in
for Shaman even though it's probably an
essential
component of of the world so take all of
that and kind of spin it together and
you find that uh the aggression is
probably what's eating Us Alive It's a
combination of aggression and also the
recognition that we need to eat food we
need to have resources we need certain
things in order for us to to exist as
organisms that naturally leads into a
direction where uh where we find
governments event
arising that are pushing us away that
are distracting us from what it would be
like uh to to be more open about these
things but there's another reason the
other reason is let's say that you get
get an entire
civilization that is that be that is
aware of and actually uses their psychic
ability about the closest I can think of
is maybe ancient Greece when they had
the the mystery schools so the mystery
schools were important because they were
open to everyone including at the time
slaves uh and it probably involve
psychedelics and the reason why it
involv psychedelics was to give people a
sense of what reality actually is like
gave them a mystical experience so
everyone had that experience when you
have that experience it opens you up to
all kinds of things that otherwise you
may not be aware
of well one of the things that may
happen is that people become more
telepathic
whether it's literally being able to uh
to not not read somebody's mind but get
a sense of who they are in a more
intimate way rather than simply having
to rely on what they say so imagine an
entire civilization where people can
tell if you're lying just something as
simple as that like they have a really
really good internal sense this person
is lying now and everybody knows it okay
what does that do for the justice system
and politics and business
and law and and all of it it would be so
different from the world that we live in
today that besides science and besides
religion you have politics pushing very
very hard against the idea that we want
people to be that open because we can't
we we can't maintain civilization as it
currently is if everybody knows who's
lying and so you can make a case then
that the the disenchantment came about
out as a result of a variety of
different kinds of pressures some of
which are still pretty active like
people who are in positions of great
power today whether it's money or
politics they absolutely don't want
people to know what's actually going on
with them because like they don't want
telepaths around knowing what's going on
they will suppress it one way or the
other uh an easy way to suppress our
knowledge about this is simply say
there's no federal funding for this know
you can you can do whatever you want you
know you use pieces of gum and string to
do your experiments because we'll give
you a dollar a
day but you're not going to get more
than that well that essentially puts a
stopper on the speed with which we could
learn anything and so it has taken about
140 years for science that has been
systematically looking at these kinds of
effects to gain extremely high
confidence that the effects are real but
if we had a billion dollars a year we
would have learned that a century ago so
I mean that is one of the consequences
of this kind of suppression so in short
what has been lost is that we would be
centuries ahead of where we currently
are today and the nature of civilization
would look very very
different he there quick questions what
is your relationship with magic in your
life is it something that's already well
established did you know that you had it
or are you just finding out that
actually some of the stuff you were
doing was magic or is this something
that you're about to bring into your
life I'd love to hear from you about
your relationship with magic in the
comments below leave me a comment I'd
love to hear from you and if there are
any questions that you have um F Dean
I'm sure he'll be back on again in the
future leave some questions below and if
you want me to ask them next time around
I'd be honored to do so on your behalf
with that back to Dean in today's
episode it's interesting because it
feels
like as much as they try to I'm
picturing like a beach ball that they're
trying to keep under the
water somewhat um but it keeps wanting
to pop its head back up and what I mean
by that is I look at something like well
even Dr Joe dispenza's work with the
placebo and uh just how much you know he
wrote the book like you are the placebo
and just how much it's just it's so hard
for to keep like oh yeah we're the
placebo you know like it's so hard to
where like your mind and your
relationship with mattera and
it's you can only suppress so much
without it rearing its head in all sorts
of nooks and crannies like roses growing
out of
concretes yeah the way it it appears and
has it has always appeared as
entertainment right how many movies and
superhero movies and horror movies and
novels are based on the idea that people
have these special
powers it's a very large chunk of the
entertainment business and it's
perfectly fine there we know we they
those kinds of movies and stories would
not be as prevalent as they are without
people resonating with them because if
you have a story that is so bizarre that
people don't even know how to react to
it that that kind of story is not going
to be around for very long but but they
are so I mean it's also not a mistake
it's not not an accident that in in
science fiction stories like uh like
either Star Wars or Star Trek you had
characters who were able to do this and
Star Trek did it in a brilliant way
where Mr Spock the most rational
creature among among the crew
through meditation learned how to do
mind melds well that that's perfect
right it means that at a more highly
Advanced state of of internal
understanding which is important part of
the Vulcan thing uh yeah these These are
quite real abilities and it's not even a
big deal but yeah so that's you see this
in science fiction again and again it's
uh also I wanted to zoom back out for a
quick sec because something I picked up
through researching your work
was let's see if I can frame this
question up the way my I'm trying to
intend to is that whilst magical
abilities are suppressed there's almost
like a insu thing that's happening is
that the collective belief in the
abilities is dimmed and therefore the
current with which people that are
enchanted let's use that as a term can
wield their access to set abilities is
actually more challenged as well and yet
if there's more of a collective belief
the current universally gets stronger
for people to be able to access these
abilities and therefore it becomes
easier to wield set abilities I think I
got it out right can you explain
that yeah uh it it is true that uh
personal belief and Collective belief
are are are aspects that will modulate
the ability for these effects to be
stronger or less
strong uh to a degree so we know
certainly within individuals that belief
is a very important uh factor and and
certainly in magical practice if you're
doing a magical spell or some kind of
Enchantment and internally while you're
doing whatever the ritual might be
you're thinking this is stupid this is
this can't work then it's not
going to work so belief is is known to
be a very very important modulator of
this the question now that you're asking
is well what about if the society
doesn't believe
it does that have a factor the answer is
yes because among other things it means
that if you tell somebody that you're
doing magical acts and the response that
you're getting B back or looks of
disbelief or looks of skepticism and so
on that affects your own ability to
believe you start thinking o maybe I was
wrong maybe maybe maybe maybe maybe that
will stop the ability they'll squash it
so doubt is definitely uh one of the
factors that magicians will try to avoid
and one of the ways of avoiding it is
you don't tell anybody so in the sorcery
Traditions the sorcerer would never
reveal what they're doing to anybody
even to other sorcerers because they
they first of all don't want other
people's intentions intermixing with
whatever they're doing and second they
don't want the slightest amount of Doubt
to creep in this is very difficult now
in the modern age because uh we because
most of us have gone through more or
less standardized education where we're
told that this stuff is fine for
education but that's it in which case if
you're interested in Magic and you start
doing you dabble with it you do read
books and try things
it's very difficult to suspend your
disbelief because you you know you're
like just on the edge of thinking well
maybe this is stupid I shouldn't I
shouldn't be doing it or maybe from a
religious sense I'm thinking like this
is going to open the door to some sort
of demonic who knows what and that I
shouldn't do it so those kind of doubts
very easily creep in and they will block
it they'll they'll block the uh the
effect so people then say well I but I
would I'd like to to use Magic on
something
well how what do I do you suspend your
disbelief you have to imagine the same
sense that you go to when you see a
Superhero Movie if you go to that movie
and you're thinking this is stupid
nobody can do this what the superhero
people are
doing well why bother go to the movie
you go to the movie and you suspend your
disbelief and so you do the same thing
when you're involved when you're doing
some kind of a a magical act you suspend
it as as best as you can so there is
complete belief no doubt at all during
during the act itself whatever that
happens to be and then later you can
start doubting yourself but at least
during the uh the effort during the
intentional effort there is no doubt at
all and it it takes a while to learn how
to do that but that's what's
necessary I think the the doubt and the
skepticism is really interesting isn't
it because it's yeah inclined to be out
skepticism is viewed as like a as like a
healthy thing but then also it's it's
just masquerading it's just doubt
masquerading around well but it but it
is important right because it the the
downside of all this is that uh you can
start seeing Omens and everything right
everything then starts look like then
now there are people psychically
attacking me and there magicians after
me and you can get paranoid you you you
can get pulled into a bad place pretty
quickly as one of the the magician
I've read a lot of books on Magic and
one of them says that uh he he started
doing magical practices and was with his
friends and they' watch his friends and
some of them would go barking
mad right you get pulled into a place
like a rabbit hole and you you just end
up going completely psychotic you go
crazy because for two things one is that
you start to see that some of the stuff
is real like the magic is real that that
all already is kind of a freak out the
second thing is that you allow it to
take over everything
else and so magic can be quite real but
that doesn't mean that you you need to
stop working with whatever your work is
and you need to stop all of your
relationships with other people and
everything else you can have everything
is exactly the same as the way it was
before with one new thing well okay the
one new thing is pretty strange but it's
just one new thing it's not not like the
rest of everything so it takes it it's
useful to be reminded of that again and
again so that people don't end up going
barking
mad interesting balance there between
you how to navigate doubt and skepticism
I was I'm looking forward to asking you
where does one begin if they are
interested in beginning but I think the
key thing I wanted to ask before that is
some of the stuff we're discussing now
um because I think there probably are
other like grounded practical reasons
why it's not always been available as
a modality for everyone to approach and
wield um are there some pre-qualifiers
before I ask a question such as hey how
do people get started you know is there
any asteris and caveat we need to put in
place many many caveats so it it is
known by meditation teachers that
roughly 2% of people learning how to
meditate will become
psychotic so there's danger in anything
right so especially when it's we're
dealing with uh getting a better sense
of of who and what you are and what you
might be capable
of so if something as simple and gentle
as meditation can make some people
become psychotic you can imagine what
happens when your worldview is
shattered because you now have have the
door has been opened a little bit and
you can now see that there's a lot more
out there this is another reason why why
psychedelic are so dangerous that for as
a party drug it's one thing if for some
people will take psychedelics more than
2% and they will go quite quite crazy
they'll become
crazy well anytime you're you're
addressing your ability to understand
the nature of reality and your role in
it for some people that is both
frightening and destabilizing and it's
psychologically not healthy so how do
you tell in advance whe whether you're
one of those people very very difficult
so experienced meditation teachers will
sometimes do an interview with somebody
to find out like how grounded are you
really know how how easy do you freak
out when you do freak out well what's
what what's your go-to way of of solving
your sense of freakout so if your go-to
way is drinking a huge amount of alcohol
maybe you should do something else go
play soccer or something go go do
something different because this isn't
that for for
you and there's lots of other ways I
mean a really good psychologist a
clinical psychologist will recognize
that this this is probably not a good
thing for
you the more grounded the better and
especially the more grounded uh and
having social outputs to be able to
discuss with somebody like is you know
am I am I going crazy and if you're
friends that you trust saying yeah like
back off dude something something's not
right here well then yeah you need pay
attention to
that U but in terms of of what would
what would you do then knowing that
there are some caveats here that you
don't you don't gain power without
having something challenging
yourself uh there are lots and lots of
books there's lots and lots of YouTubes
lots of videos and so on there's lots of
of ways that you could find out pretty
quickly there's even some reasonably
good online mystery schools to help you
do this the best in every single case is
to find at least least one trusted
teacher with a good reputation that can
guide you through it same is true in
meditation same is true in any kind of
thing where you're trying to learn
something you find somebody who's been
there before and knows what to do and
what to avoid so there are teachers
around too so as as with any kind of
teacher you go by Word of Mouth by
recommendations of uh this person was
really good and stay away from that
person those kinds of
things uh for for a very very Elementary
introduction primarily
for scientists or people who uh who
trust
science that's what I wrote real magic
for as a book but mainly this is the
next book that I have coming out because
in that book I go through the science
and the evidence whatever but then like
the last third of the book is well what
do I do what what are the practical
things that you need to keep in mind and
what are the practices so the the
easiest practice that that kind of
attracts people now because it's simple
as sigil magic sigil is a symbol you you
take a word or a sentence that that says
what your desire is this is for
enchantment type
magic and you use that to craft it into
a symbol and then you there ways of
focusing on the symbol to empower it so
to speak and then you release it into
the world and your sigil is done and
then you allow the universe to go ahead
and do whatever what whatever that
enchantment was but there are lots of
other methods and so in in the process
of putting together a book where I I
spent time going through these different
methods I found that for for me at least
that one of the methods that I found the
best for me and I have little couple of
quizzes in the book that say well what
what should I do well it depends on what
you're good at so one thing I found that
was really good for me was not magic
which is not noot but k n o t it's
making knots making little knots so this
is a piece of yarn you could use a piece
of leather or string or
whatever and so the the point of
Enchantment magic is that you're
instantiating a a desire an intention
you're taking it out of your mind and
putting it out into the world and so how
do you do that well all of the methods
are variations of that how do you take
this thing inside your head and cast it
into the world so not magic is while
you're creating a knot literally
creating a knot in some kind of string
or something you as you are pulling the
knot closed you imagine that your
intention is in the knot you're pulling
it you're capturing it into the knot and
I what I like about it is that it's
kinesthetic right it's not like a purely
mental thing that's going on it's not
even symbolic you're capturing it inside
that little knot and so you can do it
again and again and again and again so
this was one string but it made I don't
know 50 60 knots to turn it into a
little little object and so there it is
so you've now encapsulated your
intention you've put it out into the
world and then you can set it aside or
you can put on the wall or you can
destroy it you can do anything you want
with it the goal is to get it out of
your conscious
awareness right as long as it's in your
Consciousness your conscious awareness
you're kind of holding it there this
even is a thing in physics Quantum Zeno
effect the more you pay attention to
something you kind of freeze it and so I
don't want to freeze it I want to First
create it and then go boom let it out
there so I keep this one around because
I don't exactly remember sort of
remember what it was about but I also
then told myself you know don't dwell on
it sort of let it let it go out and do
what it needs to do without dwelling on
it so if I if I remember clearly I can
kind of reconstruct what it was that I
was doing but otherwise I just use it as
a way of demonstrating what a not is
it's not magic so there's many
variations like that and again some
people will be drawn to that because
it's kind of fun uh other people will
use a candle other people will use words
they'll use symbols they're all
essentially the same thing they're just
appealing to you will resonate with one
of the methods more than the other uh
and all of it is about getting the issue
of want I want this this whatever that
this happens to be to get out of your
head and to get it into the world and to
allow your unconscious that then help
Shepherd it into the world and somehow
the world will
respond and it and it makes it happen so
we have two stories on
that so one story is this so in in
talking about in in vacular we'll talk
about manifestation the same thing as
enchantment you want something okay so I
said well let's say that I wanted uh
something very very simple like I want
to find the equivalent of a $1 bill
translate into your language so I want
to find a $1 bill just laying there on
the ground it nobody dropped it it's
just there I want that well that's that
doesn't require very much of the
universe to make that happen somebody at
some point or something some thing
happened to put it there it just doesn't
magically appear but the magic part of
now is that I want to be able to find it
so I put that as a as an enchantment on
myself I want this thing well is a you
think of this from probabilistic
perspective the probability of being
able to find something like that
especially if you're in a parking lot
around a store or something it's
actually pretty high but I've now tuned
myself to be able to look for that even
subconsciously I'll be looking for it
the likelihood is I'm going to
eventually find it and I know people
who've read my my previous book on this
where they would find a $10 bill and
people have written back to me saying
yeah they found it in some cases they
found it hours after doing the sigil for
this and I think it's more a matter of
tuning what it is that we want and
paying attention to it even not
consciously for things that are already
there that's how a lot of magic Works
taking advantage of things that are
there that we're not paying attention to
so I said well what about something that
inherently is so improbable that it's
not likely to happen so I want a
goldplated Mercedes to show up in my
driveway that's mine I want my
goldplated Mercedes real gold real
Mercedes and yet it hasn't happened yet
even though I'm using that as an example
and I haven't actually done an
enchantment to try to get it but I use
that as an
example and then one of my a person on a
podcast who was listening to this and
she sent me this it's a goldplated
Mercedes it's not exactly what it had in
mind and she what she said along with
this was as you know and I do know but I
didn't say it that when you do an
enchantment you have to be extremely
clear about what it is that you want
because even though I was using this as
a the kind of as illustration I did say
I wanted it to be an actual car that I
could drive so here I have a little car
and it is a Mercedes a Mercedes and it
has wheels and everything
so then I'm on another podcast and I'm
telling the story and I'm looking on my
desk for where the the goldplated
Mercedes is and I can't find it so my
brother happened to listen to that
podcast and so he sent me another one so
now I have two golter Mercedes and this
one's a sports car that one's pretty
nice again so they like the doors open
and the wheels go and everything it's
still you know I can't go in it so again
so you have factors then that that
amplif y these effects you have
intention attention motivation belief
and
Clarity right and your ability to
imagine that it's even possible right
this has to do again with with
suspending your disbelief if you're
thinking this is stupid this can't
happen even if all everything else is in
place the likelihood goes way down so
there's something like nine different
factors like this all of which have to
be as close to Optimal as you can
possibly get in order in order to
increase the lik that the enchantment
will work so I decided I like my car now
and I don't actually you see if I got an
actual go plated Mercedes a whole bunch
of things have have to happen out there
in the world for that to really happen
because it's going to be extremely
expensive somebody's going to question
well you know where how did you get that
where did you get that you know you have
to pay insurance on it and all kinds of
things now I don't I don't actually want
it so you think now going back on it I
don't really want that thing which of
course goes into the into the mix of the
enchantment itself and says no cancel he
doesn't really want this so it means
your unconscious has to be in alignment
as well which is hard because by
definition you don't exactly know what
that is so it's one of the reasons why
big enchantments are really really
difficult because typically it involves
your unconscious and other people and so
the other people will be thinking
somebody has a goldplated somewhere in
the world they have a goldplated think
they're they're thinking I don't want to
get rid of this you know like they even
if they were able to sense that somebody
wanted it they're thinking oh no you
don't and so am am I more powerful than
they are probably not and so it becomes
each stage along the way especially
involving other
people uh the reason why black magic is
considered to be overriding somebody
else's free
will you have to take that into account
I want somebody to do this if you don't
have the permission to do it you're
asking for trouble and by the way that
also goes to somebody who's ill and
you're wishing them well you probably
want to get their permission to do that
because you might be overriding their
own free will by by casting something
upon them hi there guys I wanted to take
a quick moment just to introduce you to
my one toone coaching it's something
that I deeply love doing as you can tell
conscious conversation is such a massive
part of my life and having one toone
deep meaningful conversations with
people where I get to show up as your
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personally and a gift for lots of the
people that I have supported on the
Journey of living a more spiritually
empowered spiritually owered spiritually
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coachlife and guys if I can say so
myself I do think this is something
quite special most people that I see
building things online don't really work
with people this deeply this intimately
one onone as things start to grow just
because it is so time intensive and yet
I'm so deeply passionate about the
transformation that comes from one toone
coaching that just isn't available
anywhere else it would be my absolute
honor and a pleasure to support your
spiritual awakening your spiritual path
your spiritual unfoldment it is my
life's work I look forward to seeing you
in the call back to today's podcast yeah
it was very interesting because as you
started to share the the the the the
foundation stone started to look a lot
like desire and want and I'm glad we got
to the subconscious there because also
um yeah you start to speak to spiritual
teachers in they talk a lot about
Oneness and how desire is actually
somewhat emanating through you from
Consciousness like if you can get your
own personality desires
somewhat because some of those are
programmed in by societal wants and
they're not actually innate to the
individual's I want to use the word
sacred self but there's probably another
way to put that um they're not innate to
the soul let's put it that way way um
yeah and then try to navigate your way
around the desire
um and try to manifest something through
and yeah it was cool to sort of hear you
say ah your subconscious mind actually
plays a large part in this as well um in
terms of you know what what can be
brought forth and what can't be um there
there's also a distinction between want
and need so you may or may not get what
you want you're much more likely to get
what you
need so the the distinction is I mean
you might think that the want and the
need are the same but they're really not
I mean you need certain things you need
air you need place to live and things
like that uh or maybe you don't need a
place to live there some people are
nomadic and perfectly happy wherever
they are so it the want and the need is
a distinction that is not always in
crystal clear but there's something
about the difference between the two
like I I would like to have a suitcase
with a million dollars really well how
are you going to actually spend that
there's a very few places in the world
well that's going to do you any good at
all because you either have to launder
it through a bank a shady bank somewhere
to be able to use it since money is All
Digital now or you go to Las Vegas or
you go to someplace else where you you
can actually use a large amount of cash
because otherwise there are all kinds of
agencies watching huge cash transactions
because it's probably Drug Money so a
suitcase of a million dollars is
actually not such a good thing to have
so you again it goes down to Clarity and
thinking about the consequences of what
it is that you want slash
need the the nine factors uh are really
interesting as well I love the ones that
you covered intention attention
motivation Clarity belief one of the
easy ones um it's probably all easy but
to some degree but um one of my favorite
ones I guess is uh probably inviting
people into bless their food right like
that's that's such a yeah that's just
such an easy access point that I think
is already part of the collective
Zeitgeist so you don't have to stretch
too far uh to wander into the woods I
guess yeah especially given uh foodborn
illness so in the US we were just going
through a case where uh Big Macs at
McDonald's had a very serious and deadly
I think eoli problem uh so then you're
thinking well I just wanted a Hamburg I
didn't want to kill myself so part of
the blessing of food for for a very long
time thousands of years is that you're
about to eat something and so part of
the of the blessing or the the hope is I
hope this doesn't kill me I'm just
trying to get some food
here so we did an experiment to see
whether or not the blessing made any
difference and this is also it's echoing
from what I've heard from
chefs who occasionally will'll say that
the attitude of the people especially in
a restaurant if it's a positive attitude
everybody's happy in there then the
customers will respond better than if
you have people who are angry or
something else something's going on
soosa and people will not respond as
well so it has an economic aspect to it
to to the what is the attitude of the
chefs and the the
emotions so we did it using chocolate as
the food and so uh one of the the
reasons we did that is because whenever
you do a clinical trial uh it you you
have to recruit people to do it and we
found that it was really easy to recruit
people who had to eat chocolate as part
of this experiment had to beat them away
with
sticks so we we got this Gourmet brand
of chocolate that came in little pastil
like a little coin and uh we gave people
enough so that they three middle days of
the week they had to eat the chocolate
at 3 at 10:00 a.m. and at 3 p.m. they
had to that's by you must do this we're
giving R
permission and at the end of each day
during the week the seven days they had
to fill out a mood questionnaire
reporting what their mood was like over
the course of the day this is a
standardized um questionnaire that we
use and so uh the our first version of
this we recruited 60 people so 30 in
each batch it was double blind and
Placebo controlled and that the placebo
control was at the people getting the
chocolate didn't know what kind of
chocolate they had they knew that that
somebody would be getting blessed
chocolate and some would not be getting
blessed chocolate we had a Mongolian
Shaman uh and a Buddhist monk do the
blessings the blessing was that people
eating this chocolate would have an
elevation in mood well we did that
because eating chocolate will elevate
your mood in any case so we're lasting
for a larger increase of of mood
elevation and people eating the bless
chocolate so we did the whole
experiment and then looked at the data
afterwards and sure enough we found the
people getting the Blessed chocolate had
an significantly elevated mood as
compared to people getting the same
chocolate that had not been blessed so
when I Was preparing to publish this
thing I know it it was sent out of
course to referees who are going to look
at it and see whether they believe it or
not uh one of them disbelieved it to
such an extent that they hired a
separate statistician to look and see
what whether or not I did the statistics
correctly and they did and so the the
paper was ultimately
published uh and showing that something
that a Buddhist monk and a Mongolian
Shaman did changed the way the people
responded to this food and so then a a
colleague of mine from Taiwan said uh
we'd like to replicate that study but we
don't eat that much chocolate can thawan
so he said maybe let's use some other
kind of thing that people normally would
consume which turned out to be tea not
surprisingly so we used a large batch of
oong tea and we separated into separate
bottles had Buddhist monks from a temple
bless it again with a mood elevation
again uong te will elevate your mood
because it has some caffeine in it but
we wanted it to be elevated more and and
the the people getting the bless tea so
in that case we recruited 200 people so
we distributed the 100 bottles to one
group 100 bottles to the other group
didn't tell them what they were getting
this was double blind because the people
giving the the substance didn't know
what the substance was they were just
told to hand this out to these people so
that kept them blind and then the
analyst in this case was me I didn't
know what was A and B I just knew
there's water a and water b or ta and TB
and so I I would do the analysis and
then find out later which one was the
the real one or the blessed one so again
we find a significant
Improvement and people getting the
Blessed chocolate and here we also then
asked each person who did get the
Blessed choc or the tea in this case do
you think you are getting the Blessed
tea or not we want to see what kind of
placebo effect there might be in there
also to see whether it is true in the
magical Traditions that belief
matters because like for people getting
the Blessed tea who thought they were
not getting the Blessed tea did they
differently than people getting the
Blessed tea who thought that they did
and the answer is huge difference people
getting the Blessed tea who believed
that they were getting it had a very
significant very highly significant
Improvement in mood people getting the
bless te who did not think that they
were getting it were had exactly the
same as people not getting the bless te
at all so a huge difference in mood that
was modulated by their belief about what
was going on so now you go over to the
people get getting the non- Blessed tea
and you ask them the same question do
you think they were getting the Blessed
tea or not for them it was no difference
so they they weren't getting a bless tea
there was nothing to modulate for people
getting it there was something huge to
modulate so that actually does support
this idea within magical Traditions that
for the magic to work you have to
believe that it's going to work because
otherwise you internally you're blocking
whatever it is that makes these things
work we have since done the similar
thing using these this tea or this water
that had been
blessed uh for improving the growth rate
in Plants very significant uh finding
better growth in stem cells so doing a
cell study and most recently been not
published yet um seeing if we can reduce
the migration rate of glol blastoma
cells which is a pretty serious brain C
uh cancer and so there in all of these
cases yes we found that the uh growing
cells and growing plants in blessed
water made the results much better than
then the same water that wasn't
blessed profound uh it does lead into
the question of breaking enchantments um
we've talked a lot about making
enchantments um do you have you come
across breaking enchantments is there is
there a use case for such
things well in the magical tradition it
would be it would be called banishing
it's banishing magic you either suspect
or you know that somebody's doing
something you don't particularly like
and you can banish it so you you can do
a ritual to sort of block it from
happening the other type is uh binding
magic so binding magic is somewhere it's
like in a gray area because what you're
binding is preventing somebody from
doing something that you don't
particularly want them to
do so you bind them so they
don't do that thing typically typically
it involves binding them from doing
something that would be bad or at least
that you perceive as bad and that's why
it's a gray area because you're you're
in that case literally overcoming their
free will to do something that they're
doing but if you perceive it as they're
bad person doing stuff you don't want
them to do that so binding magic and
banishing Magic are classic ways of of
it's of trying to stop
the either a magical spell that is going
in a Direction you don't like uh we just
stopping it completely especially if you
think you're being attacked so again
this is It's kind of on the edge of
paranoid except that the moment you get
a sense that this stuff is
real well now what right because your
belief is this stuff could hurt me and
so you have to do something to prevent
it from hurting you because your belief
is there so the the banishing magic is
typically the way to do that that in the
easiest way that that people have talked
about for a long time is putting up a
mental Shield you put up a shield of
white light or a mirror or something
like that that simply protects you from
it in which case it can be highly
effective then the thing things will not
get in why because you've created what
amounts to an imp impenetrable shield
and you believe it and that's simply
that's enough to prevent it from
happening brilliant thank you so much
for that as we start to wrap up today's
conversation I can't help but feel I
remember when I had a conversation um
The Four Agreements and we talked about
toake wisdom and the the M like the sort
of the Maya and the illusion of the
world and yeah it was talking about not
letting other people's programs become
your programs um and I can't help but
you know feel today's conversation is so
beautiful in so many ways because yeah
there's been a disenchantment and
there's almost like a re-enchantment
that's being brought into the world
and it's through your work and I think
it's really interesting Dean because I
guess some people like looking from the
Western Z Ka at the moment it's like
becoming
disenchanted is like there's so much
there's like a there's like a draw
towards grounded um but yet somewhat I'm
going to use the word empty but grounded
yet somewhat empty is probably what's
coming to mind at the moment and there's
almost like a re-enchantment that's
being invited in by yourself and I
couldn't help but feel when I was
talking to um Don migu Ruiz there he
said yeah as much as you want to
decondition your mind as much as
possible when you go to have kids you'd
love to keep them as an empty slate but
you quickly realize that if you don't
condition them somebody else will right
and so this is really there's a there's
a there's a rub in there you know um and
I think the disenchantment
re-enchantment I couldn't help but feel
that there might be parallels um
happening in that space in that we want
to be disenchanted and we want to see
the world as it is but is that even
possible and potentially there's always
enchantments in place and if you know do
we is it a matter of being Enchanted and
being Enchanted in a way that feels
right for us to be enchanted touch would
just an open question for
you yeah it's it's a very good question
and there's no easy answer to it I think
uh one of the solutions that at least
that we see in the United States is
people homeschool their children right
so if you're you go through
homeschooling all the way up at least
through high school and then sometimes
you go to Specialty colleges too you can
end up with a worldview that is
extremely different from everyone else
this is mostly done within a religious
context but it can be in other context
too well so this is the the parents
approach to try to get the the children
to perceive the world in a certain way
because that's what's going to happen
it's fine if you're living within a
community where everybody else is like
that like like in the US like an Amish
Society where people stay within a kind
of a bubble
there U but you know the question can be
well then what what is the purpose of
life why why are you do should you be
exposed to everything lots of things are
not so good and some things are really
great is it is it better to do that or
to maintain a very constrained sense of
the way things are and I can see
arguments on both sides so that's why I
don't have a good solution to this uh in
in a sense every adult has to make up
their own decisions one of the things I
do find though is I know a lot of people
who say that they are they used to be
Catholic so that like like you're inside
you're grown you you're raised within a
bubble and then typically what happens
as you start to learn more and more
education you realize a lot of that
stuff in the bubble doesn't make any
sense at all because that's a clashing
with things that I'm learning that have
some empirical basis to it because
within the bubble it's all based on pure
belief or faith I mean belief and Faith
are going to make a distinction here
because faith is in a sense belief
without evidence in fact he's even worse
than that it's belief where you're
you're not allowed to question whether
it's true or not the really strong
belief is one where you say I'm not sure
I believe in that or not I'm going to
try something and you do it and it works
well that's a very strong belief now
because you have a reason to believe it
if you don't have a reason to
believe other than because somebody said
it's written in that book it's what I
I'm saying you should believe that's
pretty weak that that's why people end
up staying within the bubble because the
moment you start looking outside of the
bubble you realize that that stuff
didn't make much
sense so there's a downside if you want
someone to be engaged with the rest of
the world they're going to they're going
to learn all kinds of things so you want
to be able to get them to the point
where they're able to make decisions for
themselves which by the way is probably
around age 30 not you know like 18
forget it 18 is even a 20-year-old is
not fully formed they're still partially
like a
fetus you you want them to be at a stage
where they have some understanding of
the nature of the world and its its
complexities and they can make some sort
of informed decision and so I always
used to hear that uh you hear this in
scientists a lot that yeah they were a
really good empiricist for a very long
time but then they got to like age 60
and they became a philosopher well well
why does that happen it's because there
is a certain degree of wisdom that comes
along with age where you can kind of
look back at at what you were doing a
lot of up until you're about 60 there's
the family and the work and the job and
everything it's just com it's
overwhelming and and you get consumed by
it all because you kind of have to then
when things lighten up a little bit you
have a chance to look back on it and
start to figure out well how what what
of what I was doing actually makes sense
from this
perspective well some of it does and
some of it actually didn't or doesn't
and so one of the the disadvantages of
the Modern Life is that we don't have
live with three or four generations of
people because if we did we would hear
those stories right from people who are
now in their 70s or 80s or even older
saying you know you know yes what you're
doing now you know that's not really a
good thing to do or maybe it would be
better if you do this and if you then
respect the elders based on their wisdom
that's a much better way actually of
living but you know we don't live that
way anymore except maybe in indigenous
societies and so that's that's a sense
of something that we've lost because of
the way modern civilization has gone
which it would be nice if we were able
to figure out how to how to reconstruct
that how to make that happen
again Dr
D wow thank you so much for helping us
reclaim such a such a beautiful and
mysterious mysterious part of yeah just
reality our relationship with our mind
its relationship with matter
understanding Consciousness more fully
and yeah just finding our place in the
world in in such a rich way I will put a
link to your books um below there's a
new one like you said coming out very
shortly as this after this episode comes
out um in the coming months as we step
into 2025 as well um actually we'll go
as far as when the book pops out we'll
also add that to the link in the
description below for anybody listening
to this episode um after the effect as
well um but there's a lot there there's
websites no tic like there's so much
going on in your world as well um for
people that wanted to go a little bit
deeper obviously the books are there any
other places you'd like to recommend
they they check out some of this work
well you can go to my personal website
which is deen.com where you can go to uh
one of my jobs which is a chief
scientist at The Institute of noetic
Sciences which is no.org which you'll
have on the website and then uh my other
job is co-founder and chairman of a
biotech company called cogenic where
we're creating a a new kind of treatment
for mild cognitive impairment for
dementia and maybe for Alzheimer's
brilliant I'll put a link to all of that
in the show notes
below Dr Dean I want to thank you for
your time and energy here today thank
you so much for sharing yourself so
abundantly here with us such a
fascinating luminating conversation but
also in the same breath I think that
pale in comparison to really you know
you've been forging a path forward
researching this stuff for 30 40 years
and you know it hasn't it I'm sure like
now these conversations are more
widespread it's easier they're catching
like wildfire people are interested
whereas you know when you were first
scratching the itch you know I'm sure it
was quite
uncomfortable but you just followed your
curiosity and it was interesting to you
so you did it um but I'm sure there was
some external factors along the way that
were probably what are you doing um so
just want to thank you for you doing you
all the way through um really grateful
for you thank you so much for sharing
yourself here with us today you're
[Music]
welcome a lot of superstitions are
essentially magical rituals right
they're they're they're pushing on your
belief and belief is such a strong
modulator of this stuff that if you do
it you will believe more that this is
going to help you and then it helps you
the part of of of some of the magical
laws laws are that the word is the thing
it actually is literally the word and
the symbol is the thing itself ah and
that's why in the magical Traditions you
don't tell people your name oh you have
a you have a a pseudonym that that is uh
father soand so or frighter you know
fill in the blank right because your
name is identical to you this so you
gain power this is trippy cuz like in
the Bible it says in the beginning there
was the word is that a magical W no way
yeah sure the the word is the thing
yeah also God there's so much to talk
about in there what the word uh spell
you cast a spell what do you what do you
spell you spell a word it's the it's the
ingredients that go into a word yeah
spelling s p e l l yeah spell and
spelling are are the same root idea that
the the the phonetic symbols in that
case are put together in just the right
way and there are a lot of magical
rituals which are saying sounds right
ancient Aramaic ancient Hebrew words
there are sounds that are put together
in a certain way and this essentially is
the the element of the cabala cabala
creates reality as a result of certain
words isn't that interesting cuz there's
even the study of like neural linguistic
programming which is looking backwards
almost in on yourself based on Words and
body language and behavior which is like
this is what you're saying this is what
your body language is doing and Rec and
like decoding almost what the spell is
really interesting yeah I trained in all
that stuff for a coach for coaching but
this is yeah there's a I wish the
podcast wasn't over okay to be done
again in the
future thank you again so much for your
time dude y inspired song you made it
through to the end of another incredible
episode thank you so much for your
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